Trivia bits

[Ryoshishokunin 275]

Trivia question, rather than answer:

Does anyone know why Ounoshou has been using a 'proper' shikona since his debut? His stable doesn't seem to do that habitually.  My guess is a name crash, but my google-fu fails me.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Not sure if this belongs here but - was this site mentioned on the forum before? http://sumoelo.com/

I don't think it belongs here, and those numbers are disgracing the word ELO, really.

[Gurowake 4,012]

21 minutes ago, Doitsuyama said:

I don't think it belongs here, and those numbers are disgracing the word ELO, really.

Yeah, they seem to make very little sense.  No idea what kind of model he's using, but it's not even particularly close to accurate.  Has he done any validation of them at all?  It's one thing to have a mathematical model, it's another to have a model that actually usefully predicts something.  I'm fairly confident my model does a much better job in predicting than his would.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

His numbers never drop, they only rise through a career. It's more like a career strength measure - career wins weighted by opponent strength or something like that.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,261]

I hope to get a decayed history rating up and running soon, its iterative and should be self-validating to some extent anyway...

[Gurowake 4,012]

2 hours ago, Doitsuyama said:

His numbers never drop, they only rise through a career. It's more like a career strength measure - career wins weighted by opponent strength or something like that.

They drop for some rikishi, like Chiyootori.  He's still rated higher than Mitakeumi as of the latest update though, which is the one thing that made me absolutely certain that they were complete garbage.

[dada78641 884]

13 hours ago, Doitsuyama said:

I don't think it belongs here, and those numbers are disgracing the word ELO, really.

Agree. The numbers are completely meaningless.

I was once interested in doing similar Elo calculations, so I contacted the person behind SumoDB (not sure of his name...) and he mentioned that it's not trivial to do this. Of course, this article is the must-read on the subject.

[Asashosakari 18,959]

A chance find from my rikishi names project. No guarantees that it's actually accurate  but I found it interesting. From the Honolulu Advertiser and Honolulu Star-Bulletin joint Sunday edition dated Jan 15, 1978, reporting on Hatsu 1978 Day 8:

Wakayashima (Asato)
Matsuryuyama (Suetsugu)
Tomonoshima

(Fact check: If that Matsuryuyama-Tomonoshima bout took place in 1975.11 as stated, the DB indicates it must have been on Day 6 and the American must have lost it, not won as the article claims.)

Edited September 12, 2017 by Asashosakari

[shimodahito 304]

Juryo co-leaders: J14E & J14W.  when is the last time the bottom of Juryo (or any Division for that matter) were the two on top of the leader board?   It's still very early, but if they are still the leaders on senshuraku, that would be amazing.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by shimodahito

[Asashosakari 18,959]

(Spoiler warning: Includes result of the current basho.)
 

Straight kachikoshi after opening losing streak (exactly 8 straight wins unless otherwise noted):

from 0-7
1951.01 M2e  Tochinishiki

from 0-6
1959.03 M4w  Kitabayama
1984.05 J10e Wakasegawa
2008.03 M8w  Tochinonada

from 0-5
never been done

from 0-4
1953.05 J12e Dewanohana (11)
1982.03 M5e  Kirinji (11)
1992.11 S1w  Takahanada (9)
2003.01 M10e Tochinonada (11)
2008.07 M2e  Asasekiryu
2017.09 Sw   Yoshikaze

from 0-3
1950.05 J8e  Kiryugawa
1956.03 J5e  Yasome (10)
1958.03 M5w  Annenyama
1964.11 M7e  Wakachichibu
1964.11 J13e Hanahikari (12)
1965.05 M4e  Myobudani (10)
1965.11 M11w Daishin
1970.03 J2w  Katsuhikari (9)
1973.11 M6e  Kitaseumi
1983.07 J9e  Jingaku
1993.05 J11w Tochitenko
1994.07 K2w  Takatoriki
1999.03 J4e  Dewaarashi
1999.05 J1w  Wakanoyama (10)
2002.11 J6e  Kasugao (10)
2003.03 J1w  Yotsukasa
2008.05 M6w  Hokutoriki (9)
2010.09 M14w Tamawashi
2012.03 J4e  Asahisho (9)
2012.05 M11e Shotenro

Edited September 21, 2017 by Asashosakari
better formatting

[Tsubame 359]

If Harumafuji manage to win this Aki Basho, he would be the first yusho winner giving away four kin boshi! [query]

[Yamanashi 3,772]

Sorry if this has been pointed out before.

No matter what style of sumo a rikishi prefers, a good portion of his wins are by yorikiri.

Takakeisho has only had one yorikiri win in his career, back in Natsu 2016 when he was Sato.

 

 

[Asashosakari 18,959]

11 hours ago, Tsubame said:

If Harumafuji manage to win this Aki Basho, he would be the first yusho winner giving away four kin boshi! [query]

Of course it couldn't be any other way since he'd also be the first yokozuna to win an 11-4 yusho. 

[Gurowake 4,012]

32 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Sorry if this has been pointed out before.

No matter what style of sumo a rikishi prefers, a good portion of his wins are by yorikiri.

Takakeisho has only had one yorikiri win in his career, back in Natsu 2016 when he was Sato.

I just checked this for a few people.  Chiyotaikai (Oshi-zumotori extraordinaire) was around 5%, Mainoumi (department store of techniques, with shitatenage and kirikaeshi being the most common) 10%, Satonofuji (the bow twirler who has huge array of weird kimarite at much higher than normal rates) 15%, Kizenryu (50% uwatenage) 10%.  Takakeisho - less than 1%.  But his career is just starting.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,261]

Kotoyuki has a little bit longer career and is at a 1.68% rate right now.

[Atenzan 1,074]

On 22/3/2016 at 19:19, McBugger said:

On day 6, Kotoyuuki beat Terunofuji by the most common kimarite in sumo, yorikiri.

The last time Kotoyuuki won by yorikiri was Nagoya 2012, day 7, 302 bouts ago.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=9079#0yorikiri

Reposting this from page 4 of this thread, while we're on the topic.

[Yubinhaad 11,591]

Kenshin has 0% interest in a mawashi grip.

[Gurowake 4,012]

43 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Kenshin has 0% interest in a mawashi grip.

Even if the textbook definition of yorikiri requires a grip on the mawashi, it's also used as a catch-all category for when someone uses their whole body to force the opponent out even when there's no grip on the mawashi, and I'm guessing those are what make up most of such cases for rikishi like Chiyotaikai.

[Yamanashi 3,772]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

I just checked this for a few people.  Chiyotaikai (Oshi-zumotori extraordinaire) was around 5%, Mainoumi (department store of techniques, with shitatenage and kirikaeshi being the most common) 10%, Satonofuji (the bow twirler who has huge array of weird kimarite at much higher than normal rates) 15%, Kizenryu (50% uwatenage) 10%.  Takakeisho - less than 1%.  But his career is just starting.

Thanks for the reply!

I checked all of Makuuchi for Aki 2017, and no one else comes close to his lack of yorikiri.  The video of the lone bout in 2016 is still available, and even that one is not much of a yorikiri -- it looks like he was trying for an arm bar and just ran out of dohyo .

Takakeisho is on the young side, but my perception of young rikishi on the rise is they would have a lot of this kimirate early on; they're taught to shove the other guy out until that doesn't work, then to survive they become "crafty veterans" who find new ways to win.  Of course, a kid coming in through judo would know a lot of these tactics already.  I am new to this, though, so I may be wrong.

 

[Asashosakari 18,959]

Keep in mind that many of today's younger stars have turned professional with anywhere between 5 and 15 years of amateur experience, often in high quality programs. A lot of them join already knowing what works for them, or at least thinking they know, to the consternation of their professional coaches.

[Yamanashi 3,772]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Keep in mind that many of today's younger stars have turned professional with anywhere between 5 and 15 years of amateur experience, often in high quality programs. A lot of them join already knowing what works for them, or at least thinking they know, to the consternation of their professional coaches.

This leads to a follow-up question:

Has there ever been friction between rikishi who came up from nothing (out of junior high or right out of the fields) and the university grads?  Is there anything like a "class envy" vibe?  And if so, has that changed over time?

 

[Asashosakari 18,959]

Aki 2017 was the 400th 15-day tournament in sumo history.

We'll have to wait 10 more basho for the 400th tournament of the "15-day era" though, as the current anniversary count includes the 10 earlier 15-day tournaments staged from Natsu 1939 to Haru 1944.

[Gurowake 4,012]

20 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Keep in mind that many of today's younger stars have turned professional with anywhere between 5 and 15 years of amateur experience, often in high quality programs. A lot of them join already knowing what works for them, or at least thinking they know, to the consternation of their professional coaches.

Aoiyama is *still* listed as a yotsu wrestler on the Kyokai website, as that's presumably what he was as an amateur and what he started out as a pro.  His wikipedia page shows him on his debut tournament, and he was a *lot* skinnier.  Apparently as he put on weight he was no longer able to do yotsu very well and is now known as being almost exclusively an oshi specialist.  So clearly they can change based on circumstances.

[ryafuji 810]

I'm guessing Takekaze's yorikiri percentage is extremely low as well for a rikishi with such a long career. I think the last time he used it to win a bout was in 2014. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by ryafuji

[Gurowake 4,012]

2 hours ago, ryafuji said:

I'm guessing Takekaze's yorikiri percentage is extremely low as well for a rikishi with such a long career. I think the last time he used it to win a bout was in 2014. 

Not that hard to look up: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=1284 - around 4%.  He did have a yorikiri in Nagoya this year though.

Another interesting bit I noticed while looking at his yorikri list: his very first Ozumo match was against Ama (Harumafuji), and it was a win by yorikiri.  Ama had won the Sd Yusho the basho before and was in his first Makushita basho at Ms15 such as to be Takekaze's first opponent.  Takekaze went on to reach Juryo in 2 basho from debut, while it would take Ama a few more years.  Not too surprising given that Takekaze is 5 years older.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Gurowake