Gurowake

Trivia bits

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Might have been mentioned before, but I just realized:

Six of the top seven most frequent pairings are still growing - amazing!

1. Kisenosato  Kotoshogiku  63
2. Kisenosato  Harumafuji   61
3. Hakuho      Kisenosato   59
3. Harumafuji  Kotoshogiku  59
3. Musashimaru Takanonami   59
6. Hakuho      Harumafuji   57
7. Hakuho      Kotoshogiku  55

 

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Kyokutenho was not beaten by either rikishi with shikona Tochinowaka that he faced.  I was originally going for just "look, Kyokutenho faced two different rikishi with the same shikona" but it turned out more interesting than that.  I was specifically looking for someone that had done the latter, and figured these matchups were most likely.  Are there any others that have faced two different sekitori with the same shikona?

edit: Wakanosato and Miyabiyama faced these two as well.  Probably other career rank-and-file guys did as well, but I wouldn't have any idea about who they would be, having retired before I started following sumo and not being particularly noteworthy.  I'm looking for more, but if they're not names I recognize, I probably wouldn't think to check.

KyokutenhoTochinowaka.png

Edited by Gurowake
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Kakuryu faced two different rikishi called Okinoumi, but one of those was in Sandanme. There have been a lot of Sato rikishi, but most never make it to sekitori. Interestingly the most recent Sato (now Takakeisho) had his Hatsu dohyo at the same basho as the intai of the previous one.

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3 hours ago, Gurowake said:

edit: Wakanosato and Miyabiyama faced these two as well.  Probably other career rank-and-file guys did as well, but I wouldn't have any idea about who they would be, having retired before I started following sumo and not being particularly noteworthy.  I'm looking for more, but if they're not names I recognize, I probably wouldn't think to check.

Tosanoumi also faced both Tochinowakas, and that's the whole list. Can be checked via query.

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[nitpick]These Tochinowakas have the same shikona in Romaji only.[/nitpick]

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Chiyonofuji faced Takanohana and Takanohana.... except that one was still called Takahanada at the time. Does that count?

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51 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Chiyonofuji faced Takanohana and Takanohana.... except that one was still called Takahanada at the time. Does that count?

It's interesting that somebody faced both father and son, but as "shikona trivia" it's not very remarkable if one has to extend it that far. Asanowaka faced four different sekitori who were known as Sato at some point;-) To make it noteworthy the particular shikona must have been used in the actual matchups, IMHO.

Edited by Asashosakari
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4 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

It's interesting that somebody faced both father and son...

It is indeed! How often has somebody faced both father and son, as sekitori at that? I know there are a fair few sumo 'dynasties' to set up the possibility, but has it happened often?

Edited by RabidJohn

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1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

It is indeed! How often has somebody faced both father and son, as sekitori at that?

I would guess it's almost inevitable that it happens in the sekitori ranks, due to the age differences involved. The father must be older than the connecting rikishi, so it's likely that he's an established sekitori, and then the connecting rikishi must be older than the son, so it's likely that he is then also an established sekitori at the later date.

The first family that came to mind (other than the Hanadas): It looks like nobody met both Masuiyamas, but the age differential is very large with them - the father retired almost 20 years before the son's sekitori debut.

Edit: None for father and son Sadanoumi either.

Edited by Asashosakari

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What about the Tochiazumas?

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10 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

What about the Tochiazumas?

Tochiazuma I retired in January 1977, while Tochiazuma II had his maezuma debut in November 1994, and first became a sekitori (juryo promotion) in May 1996. That's also almost 20 years apart...

So it's highly unlikely someone faced both of them...

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16 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

[nitpick]These Tochinowakas have the same shikona in Romaji only.[/nitpick]

That's rather surprising to me.  I didn't even think to check.

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15 hours ago, Chijanofuji said:

Tochiazuma I retired in January 1977, while Tochiazuma II had his maezuma debut in November 1994, and first became a sekitori (juryo promotion) in May 1996. That's also almost 20 years apart...

So it's highly unlikely someone faced both of them...

I checked and as expected nobody faced both Tochiazuma's.

Interestingly the first Tochiazuma faced 2 Yutakayama's (who were not related to each other and also not related to the current shin-nyumaku Yutakayama (former Oyanagi)), two Daigo's (also not related), and two Kongo's (also not related), and on top of that both Tochiazuma's faced one of the Takanohana's (who were father and son), so the father Tochiazuma faced the father Takanohana, while the son Tochiazuma faced the son Takanohana.... so close, but no cigar! (Laughing...)

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3 hours ago, Chijanofuji said:

I checked and as expected nobody faced both Tochiazuma's.

Interestingly the first Tochiazuma faced 2 Yutakayama's (who were not related to each other and also not related to the current shin-nyumaku Yutakayama (former Oyanagi)), two Daigo's (also not related), and two Kongo's (also not related), and on top of that both Tochiazuma's faced one of the Takanohana's (who were father and son), so the father Tochiazuma faced the father Takanohana, while the son Tochiazuma faced the son Takanohana.... so close, but no cigar! (Laughing...)

Well spotted! The two Yutakayama's were only four years apart - the ozeki retiring in September 1968 and his deshi switching from Nagahama to Yutakayama in July 1972, so I'm sure a few others faced both. Takamiyama did of course.

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And if anyone wants to keep an eye on Kotokamatani - 6 rikishi who faced his father (Kotonowaka) are still active: Aminishiki, Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, Takekaze and Toyonoshima. (Asasekiryu would have been on the list yesterday.)

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56 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

And if anyone wants to keep an eye on Kotokamatani - 6 rikishi who faced his father (Kotonowaka) are still active: Aminishiki, Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, Takekaze and Toyonoshima. (Asasekiryu would have been on the list yesterday.)

My first thought was "huh, why not Kotoshogiku too?".  The answer is obvious of course, but I spent at least 5 seconds wondering how that might happen before figuratively smacking myself in the head.

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47 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

And if anyone wants to keep an eye on Kotokamatani - 6 rikishi who faced his father (Kotonowaka) are still active: Aminishiki, Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, Takekaze and Toyonoshima. (Asasekiryu would have been on the list yesterday.)

Well spotted! If Kotokamatani manages to become a sekitori within 1 or 2 years its bound to happen, though he will probably have to make it to Makuuchi for it to actually come to pass.

He could theoretically face Toyonoshima soon (both are currently in Makushita after all), but the odds are not that high and Toyo may retire soon...

And I doubt that Aminishiki will manage to hang on for 2 more years before he retires (unless he somehow manages to get back to Makuuchi first).

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3 minutes ago, Chijanofuji said:

Well spotted! If Kotokamatani manages to become a sekitori within 1 or 2 years its bound to happen, though he will probably have to make it to Makuuchi for it to actually come to pass.

He could theoretically face Toyonoshima soon (both are currently in Makushita after all), but the odds are not that high and Toyo may retire soon...

And I doubt that Aminishiki will manage to hang on for 2 more years before he retires (unless he somehow manages to get back to Makuuchi first).

Yeah, I was just going to post that facing Toyonoshima was within the realm of possibility (they'd presumably be at 5-0 if not 6-0; 5-1 doesn't even seem to be enough given how far they are apart), and it looks less and less likely each basho that Aminishiki is going to get back out of Juryo.  Takekaze might continue to fight until he's no longer able to cut it in Juryo as well, which could still be quite a number of years.  The rest of them seem likely to retire before the youngster gets that high.

Edited by Gurowake

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Kisenosato's day 2 win avoided this to be the first time that both Makuuchi yusho doten rikishi start 0-2 into the next basho. It's still somewhat frequent that both lose on Shonichi in the next basho as it's the 6th time after 194910, 197605, 198103, 200607 and 201207 (in 67 cases of a two rikishi Makuuchi yusho doten).

 

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Asanowaka faced four different sekitori who were known as Sato at some point.

 

One of the Satos, Senshuyama, reached a career high of Juryo 1. Why didn't he reach Makuuchi? He was close ...

In 2002.09 he scored 9-6 as J2e and was not promoted, because J3w with 10-5 and J4w with 11-4 were promoted over him, and additionally ... hold your breath, Aogiyama, kjuyo at M14w, received a protected ranking and was not demoted this time, only to be demoted with 6-9 at the next event, and going intai a few bashos later!

This was really, really bad luck for him in Banzuke making! Should have a beer with Tochinoshin!

Edited by Andreas21
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I'm gonna stretch a little bit:

This Basho is tied for third in number of juryo rikishi with 3-3 records (15) after day 6, including Basho with 36 ~ 48 juryo rikishi (these days it's 28). Last time it happened was 1966.

Similarly, Makuuchi is tied 6th all time for 4-2 records after day 6 (15 again) with 1957 the last time such a thing happened (with again like 53 relishing in the div)

A historically muddled Basho so far? 

 

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As mentioned elsewhere, a little over 5% of all modern-era rikishi who got to face yokozuna in their careers were already ranked in sanyaku by the time it first happened. This is the list of these 26 rikishi, of whom only Wakashoyo managed to win his first-time yokozuna encounter:
 

Rikishi First Y Rank Yokozuna Notes
Miyagiyama 1927.01 Y2e Tsunenohana  
Okitsuumi 1933.01 S1e Tamanishiki 5th sanyaku basho; draw; loss in next basho also as S; no kinboshi opportunities
Takanobori 1933.01 S1w Tamanishiki 3rd sanyaku basho
Tomoegata 1935.05 K1w Tamanishiki  
Ayanobori 1936.01 K1e Tamanishiki  
Fudoiwa 1945.11 K1w Terukuni beat Y later in same basho
Tokitsuyama 1952.01 K1w Azumafuji  
Kiyokuni 1964.03 S1w Tochinoumi  
Kitanofuji 1964.03 K1e Kashiwado  
Mienoumi 1970.07 K1w Kitanofuji beat 2 Y later in same basho
Asahikuni 1972.11 S1w Kitanofuji  
Kitanoumi 1973.01 K1e Kitanofuji  
Chiyonofuji 1978.07 K1w Kitanoumi  
Oyutaka 1983.01 K1w Chiyonofuji  
Onokuni 1983.09 K1w Chiyonofuji  
Kotogaume 1985.11 K1w Chiyonofuji beat Y later in same basho
Tochinowaka 1987.07 K1e Futahaguro  
Ryogoku 1987.07 K1w Chiyonofuji beat 2 Y later in same basho
Maenoshin 1987.09 K1e Hokutoumi three Y matches in that basho, none afterwards
Misugisato 1989.01 K1w Chiyonofuji  
Musashimaru 1993.03 S1e Akebono 6th sanyaku basho; no kinboshi opportunities
Wakashoyo 1993.03 K1w Akebono won
Naminohana 1995.03 K1e Akebono  
Hakuba 2010.07 K1e Hakuho only Y match in career
Chiyootori 2014.05 K1w Hakuho beat Y later in same basho
Jokoryu 2014.09 K1e Kakuryu  


Plenty of later top stars in there, and also several close calls where they ended up beating other yokozuna in the same tournament, which makes it so astounding that the success rate has been 1 in 26. The links go to each rikishi's list of yokozuna bouts, so you can check the details for yourself if you're so inclined.

(Note: My definition of "modern era" in this case was that rikishi must have had their first yokozuna match in 1927 or after. They were allowed to have been active before 1927.)

Edited by Asashosakari
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This is interesting. But I'd argue it's not as astounding as it seems that only 1 in 26 has done it. As you've shown only 60 out of 450 rikishi have won their first bout with a Yokozuna. So that's a little over 13% or about 1 in 8.  Given the 26 which occurred in a Sanyaku debut we'd only expect there to be 3 to begin with at 1 in 8. Given the pressure associated with a Sanyaku debut I'm not surprised there isn't 3. Yes, there is pressure in any first Yokozuna bout but nobody expects a Maegashira to win. If they lose it's expected. The pressure is much less. They are less nervous and are much more freewheeling in their Yokozuna bout. True nobody expects a new Sanyaku to win either, but that new Sanyaku does. No matter what they may say they publicly they have to wonder "i may really be meant to be here. I'm 3 basho away from Ozeki!" The pressure they must put on themselves is immense. K and S are great but they are like being named an All Star or All Pro. But Ozeki is different. That is like the Hall of Fame. Beating a Yokozuna on your 1st try is like hitting a home run in your debut major league at bat. Which occurs, but not often. Beating a Yokozuna when your 1st bout with him is in your sanyaku debut  is like hitting that 1st home run in a playoff game against the star pitcher you've never faced before.  It rarely if ever happens because their are so few chances of it even happening.

In fact I'm actually surprised there is even 1. Which would make me think even that 1 is a total fluke. You could even argue Wakashoyo didn't really do it. During the 6 basho Wakashoyo spent as a Maegashira there was no one with the title Yokozuna actually there for him to meet. During those 6 basho their was a total of 10 bouts which had a Yokozuna in it and no more than 4 of those occurred in any 1 of those basho. Had their been Wakashoyo would of met one prior to his debut. There was no Yokozuna at all during his sanyaku run. Now if you define the Yokozuna as not just the person with that title but the biggest dog on the banzuke, the guy winning the yushos, then Wakashoyo did face him in each of the 2 basho prior to his Sanyaku debut and lost both times. That guy being Akebono. In his career Wakashoyo faced Akebono 9 times and lost every time except that once. Luckily for him that once was in Akebono's Yokozuna debut.  Wakashoyo's debut was against a brand new Yokozuna with whom he had experience recently facing. And everyone knows a Yokozuna rarely does well in their debut and they are the one with nerves for a change.

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