Hokuseiho Out- Hakuho Demoted - Miyagino-beya Closing

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

I have always thought that there could be a market for some kind of sumo world championship league. Strip out all the Japanese traditions & entry barriers. Make it a true modern-day sport. Have weight classes as well as an open division. Give it more of an MMA feel. Have a series of tournaments all around the world a la F1. Have championship belts, etc. 

Not something to compete directly with traditional Japanese sumo, but rather, a separate entity to further generate global interest in the sport. 

[Asashosakari 18,786]

1 hour ago, Kaninoyama said:

I have always thought that there could be a market for some kind of sumo world championship league. Strip out all the Japanese traditions & entry barriers. Make it a true modern-day sport. Have weight classes as well as an open division. Give it more of an MMA feel. Have a series of tournaments all around the world a la F1. Have championship belts, etc. 

Not something to compete directly with traditional Japanese sumo, but rather, a separate entity to further generate global interest in the sport. 

I mean, this very forum has an amasumo section where the "success" of alternative forms of sumo is on stark display... The number of people willing to pay for "sport sumo" (weight classes, etc.) has always been negligible, as any look at IFS-promoted events demonstrates, and independent attempts at producing something commercially viable have invariably focused on the freak show factor to draw eyeballs (or on misrepresenting it as "just like the one in Japan" while delivering something totally different). In three decades there's been pretty much just one outlier success story that's reasonably sporty and not shady or freakshowy, the US Open. I don't think it's a coincidence that even the promoters of that one haven't tried to extend it beyond that one annual event, not to mention that for all its qualities it still barely qualifies as a semi-pro venture.

I had this discussion with the ISJ folks a year or two back, and my opinion remains unchanged: I see zero reason to believe that professional sumo can be promoted sustainably and profitably in any form other than the Ozumo one.

Edited March 12 by Asashosakari

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I had this discussion with the ISJ folks a year or two back, and my opinion remains unchanged: I see zero reason to believe that professional sumo can be promoted sustainably and profitably in any form other than the Ozumo one.

You're probably right. As someone immersed in the sport, it seems far more viable to me than it likely would to the uninitiated sports fan who has no idea what the sport is about. And if you strip away all the Japanese tradition, maybe what's left isn't all that marketable after all. 

[Yamanashi 3,726]

1 hour ago, Kaninoyama said:

You're probably right. As someone immersed in the sport, it seems far more viable to me than it likely would to the uninitiated sports fan who has no idea what the sport is about. And if you strip away all the Japanese tradition, maybe what's left isn't all that marketable after all. 

Sumo as a sport seems a bit obscure for a potential worldwide pro league.  Judo is a more well-known sport; how's the Judo Pro League doing?

[SumoLyubo 6]

Have to agree that the audience for sumo minus the stable system and ceremonial elements is not going to be any greater than sumo in its current incarnation. If anything, the traditional elements probably add appeal to the sport (including internationally).

[robnplunder 974]

Good riddance to both.  

[Akinomaki 39,798]

On 11/03/2024 at 00:46, Akinomaki said:

It is unrealistic to think the NSK executives will persuade the ichimon to do something more reasonable, so this is most likely what we will get.

Actually the NSK executives are more reasonable: they refused the ichimon proposals and demanded one where the shisho is with the deshi. Asakayama may be the heya where all go to. Nothing decided yet, they plan again. o

Maybe the protests by fans had some effect on the NSK?

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Interesting, that's a lot more forward than yesterday's Nikkan report which just stated that the ichimon had decided to meet for further refinements of their ideas ahead of any feedback from the board of directors. It sounds like the "no splitting shisho and deshi" requirement is a hard line that made the board not want to deal with the proposals in further detail altogether. (Although that makes me wonder why they didn't just tell the ichimon that from the start...)

[Chartorenji 235]

On 11/03/2024 at 16:18, Kaninoyama said:

I have always thought that there could be a market for some kind of sumo world championship league. Strip out all the Japanese traditions & entry barriers. Make it a true modern-day sport. Have weight classes as well as an open division. Give it more of an MMA feel. Have a series of tournaments all around the world a la F1. Have championship belts, etc. 

Not something to compete directly with traditional Japanese sumo, but rather, a separate entity to further generate global interest in the sport. 

 

On 11/03/2024 at 17:35, Asashosakari said:

I mean, this very forum has an amasumo section where the "success" of alternative forms of sumo is on stark display... The number of people willing to pay for "sport sumo" (weight classes, etc.) has always been negligible, as any look at IFS-promoted events demonstrates, and independent attempts at producing something commercially viable have invariably focused on the freak show factor to draw eyeballs (or on misrepresenting it as "just like the one in Japan" while delivering something totally different). In three decades there's been pretty much just one outlier success story that's reasonably sporty and not shady or freakshowy, the US Open. I don't think it's a coincidence that even the promoters of that one haven't tried to extend it beyond that one annual event, not to mention that for all its qualities it still barely qualifies as a semi-pro venture.

I had this discussion with the ISJ folks a year or two back, and my opinion remains unchanged: I see zero reason to believe that professional sumo can be promoted sustainably and profitably in any form other than the Ozumo one.

 

On 11/03/2024 at 22:29, SumoLyubo said:

Have to agree that the audience for sumo minus the stable system and ceremonial elements is not going to be any greater than sumo in its current incarnation. If anything, the traditional elements probably add appeal to the sport (including internationally).

 

There is a market here in America for Sumo wrestling, it's just relatively untapped. The way the "Freak Shows" still get thousands of viewers not only in attendance but also online proves it I think. The only way you can do it I think while retaining some sense of honor/prestige is doing everything you can to hold the events like Ozumo. I'm talking dirt dohyos, bringing in former Rikishi as judges/coaches, having a banzuke. And while doing all that you also connect with the younger audience that views sports mostly through social media. Jomboy Media (youtube channel with a million plus subscribers) has done several videos on the sport for example. Bring in him and others and show them the stuff more hardcore sumo fans would know. 

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

Hey y'all! I was on a deep sea mission for a month. Did I miss anything?

[Benevolance 2,478]

Nope. 

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

4 hours ago, Chartorenji said:

 

 

 

There is a market here in America for Sumo wrestling, it's just relatively untapped. The way the "Freak Shows" still get thousands of viewers not only in attendance but also online proves it I think. The only way you can do it I think while retaining some sense of honor/prestige is doing everything you can to hold the events like Ozumo. I'm talking dirt dohyos, bringing in former Rikishi as judges/coaches, having a banzuke. And while doing all that you also connect with the younger audience that views sports mostly through social media. Jomboy Media (youtube channel with a million plus subscribers) has done several videos on the sport for example. Bring in him and others and show them the stuff more hardcore sumo fans would know. 

Based on my minimal connection to the American amateur scene in sumo, it appears that there is some friction up at the top of the USSF. Members have been asking for a change in the leadership and in policies to help grow the sport in the US, but the top seems to be unwilling to make changes. There is also a recent league called the ISL that both USSF and the ISF seem to have denounced because of the founder's shady past dealings. He has apparently signed Osunaarashi to compete though. 

[Oskanohana 227]

2 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Hey y'all! I was on a deep sea mission for a month. Did I miss anything?

Long story short, Hokuseiho was caught smoking marijuana while driving a stolen car en route to a pachinko parlor in the company of a prostitute with ties to the yakuza. He was questioned about it, and he denied everything and got booted from sumo for lying on the inquiry.

Hakuho, as his sisho, will be forced to close the heya and to move as close to Takanohana as possible.

[Yamanashi 3,726]

2 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

There is also a recent league called the ISL that both USSF and the ISF seem to have denounced because of the founder's shady past dealings. He has apparently signed Osunaarashi to compete though. 

See some relevant posts in the Amasumo discussion about World Championship Sumo.

[Hakuryuho 334]

5 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

Hakuho, as his sisho, will be forced to close the heya and to move as close to Takanohana as possible.

That would be a great sitcom or Big Brother style show - Takanohana and Hakuho sharing a house, Harumafuji and Asashoryu joining them in season 2
and a family reunion of all the yaocho boys as a special Christmas episode

[dingo 1,160]

7 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

Long story short, Hokuseiho was caught smoking marijuana while driving a stolen car en route to a pachinko parlor in the company of a prostitute with ties to the yakuza. He was questioned about it, and he denied everything and got booted from sumo for lying on the inquiry.

Having read about Hokuseiho's behaviour, this actually sounds totally realistic. 

[Morty 1,480]

On 12/03/2024 at 03:22, Benihana said:

Maybe it's time for the NSK to invest in shisho training. You want to be shisho? At least 3 years of vocational training, like we do in Germany. And that period doesn't start per default on becoming oyakata, you have to apply for it. Leadership seminars, (financial) managing seminars, communication seminars. Extended stays in various respected, "clean" beya with no regards to ichimon. Sucking in experience and knowledge from different sources and perspectives. Learning from the great ones is a good base for becoming a great one. Absolutely NO heya preparations, except limited scouting. Use the third year to start establishing the new heya in a joint effort.

 

This. The idea that being a champion in a sport will instantly make you a champion as a coach has been proven wrong over and over and over, in nearly every sport. While there are notable exceptions, the usual result is that the champion crashes and burns. Coaching is an entirely different skill set and it needs to be learned. While Hakuho appeared to be good at teaching his deshi to be good on the dohyo, he was clearly an abject failure at the other parts of coaching, ie, looking after your charges' welfare. I'm not surprised this didn't go well

[Yamanashi 3,726]

1 hour ago, Morty said:

This. The idea that being a champion in a sport will instantly make you a champion as a coach has been proven wrong over and over and over, in nearly every sport. While there are notable exceptions, the usual result is that the champion crashes and burns. Coaching is an entirely different skill set and it needs to be learned. While Hakuho appeared to be good at teaching his deshi to be good on the dohyo, he was clearly an abject failure at the other parts of coaching, ie, looking after your charges' welfare. I'm not surprised this didn't go well

I assumed that's what Ishiura was for, drawing on his family lineage.  maybe there wasn't enough time [or maybe I'm wrong!]

[Tochinofuji 372]

4 hours ago, Morty said:

This. The idea that being a champion in a sport will instantly make you a champion as a coach has been proven wrong over and over and over, in nearly every sport. While there are notable exceptions, the usual result is that the champion crashes and burns. Coaching is an entirely different skill set and it needs to be learned. While Hakuho appeared to be good at teaching his deshi to be good on the dohyo, he was clearly an abject failure at the other parts of coaching, ie, looking after your charges' welfare. I'm not surprised this didn't go well

And it's even worse than that. Not only is being a great champion somehow meant to make you a great coach (proven false as a general proposition, but at least one can see some skill carryover as the basis for the idea), it's meant to make you effectively a great general manager of an organization, albeit usually a small one, as well as a parental figure. All entirely unrelated skillsets to on-dohyo prowess and seemingly without any vocational training, at least officially. That's...just insanity. 

[Gaijingai 1,527]

Miyagino’s Last Stand and New Digs. 
https://japantoday.com/category/features/kuchikomi/sumo-showdown-will-this-be-miyagino's-last-stand

[Kaitetsu 277]

Well, if they go to Asakayama in the new plan, Kaio sure must be a bit pissed that he will get his foreigner slot taken by Seihakuho, or because he is being forced there the rule wont apply in the future?

[Benihana 1,901]

2 hours ago, Gaijingai said:

Miyagino’s Last Stand and New Digs. 
https://japantoday.com/category/features/kuchikomi/sumo-showdown-will-this-be-miyagino's-last-stand

$13.5M in total for the new heya on a 500m² lot, which costs about ~$9.4M ? I knew Tokyo is expensive, but that's ridiculous. Completely baka.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

1 hour ago, Kaitetsu said:

Well, if they go to Asakayama in the new plan, Kaio sure must be a bit pissed that he will get his foreigner slot taken by Seihakuho, or because he is being forced there the rule wont apply in the future?

Considering Kaio hasn't brought in any foreign-shusshin rikishi in the 10 years that the heya has existed, I suspect that's only a limited concern of his. But sure, if they decide to outright treat the absorption of Miyagino-beya by [insert other stable here] as a temporary caretaker phase, it's possible that the Kyokai will consider them as separate entities for the purposes of foreign recruiting.

[Kaitetsu 277]

20 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Considering Kaio hasn't brought in any foreign-shusshin rikishi in the 10 years that the heya has existed, I suspect that's only a limited concern of his. But sure, if they decide to outright treat the absorption of Miyagino-beya by [insert other stable here] as a temporary caretaker phase, it's possible that the Kyokai will consider them as separate entities for the purposes of foreign recruiting.

Just was thinking about it as maybe Kaisei might bring someone over from Brazil?

[Oskanohana 227]

11 hours ago, dingo said:

19 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

Long story short, Hokuseiho was caught smoking marijuana while driving a stolen car en route to a pachinko parlor in the company of a prostitute with ties to the yakuza. He was questioned about it, and he denied everything and got booted from sumo for lying on the inquiry.

Having read about Hokuseiho's behaviour, this actually sounds totally realistic. 

I'm not revealing my sources.

13 hours ago, Hakuryuho said:

That would be a great sitcom or Big Brother style show - Takanohana and Hakuho sharing a house, Harumafuji and Asashoryu joining them in season 2
and a family reunion of all the yaocho boys as a special Christmas episode

All of them together. Do it. Let them get drunk and sing karaoke. I'm seeing the scene right now: Harumafuji is trying to beat Takanoiwa with a broken bottle, Wakakirin gets bumped and drops his phone, Yamamotoyama steps on it and Wakakirin punches the lights out of him. This is comedy gold