Hokuseiho Out- Hakuho Demoted - Miyagino-beya Closing

[Ripe 70]

18 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

The NSK has had to evolve with how they have dealt with these issues. In the case of Tokitsukaze, the stablemaster at the same time was expelled from the heya, plus he and the perpetrators were criminally charged and sentenced. And, another wrestler's career was cut short by him retiring to take over the stable. The NSK was likely not wanting to shut down a heya with such as long and storied history like Tokitsukaze. With other heya we have seen how this has changed. Nakagawa did close down after the stablemaster was found to have mistreated his wrestlers. But I get how people may see this treatment as being hypocritical when heyas like Shibatayama and Kasugano seem to have no repercussions when it was found how they had mistreated their wrestlers. I personally don't get how Shibatayama can stay on the board, but he has likely forged many alliances and is also good at his job, although at the expense of the success of his wrestlers. It goes without saying that the ways that things have had to evolve are not perfect, but nothing ever is

You forgot about Michinoku... sure, heya will close down but that is because oyakata turns 65, not because he ignored violence inside heya (including use of air-gun).

[Asashosakari 18,786]

38 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Sounds less and less LOL. Hakuho is popular, somewhat wealthy, well connected, hasn't the longest fuse...and they poke him. Then they stop for a short moment and start poking again, this time harder. How many pokes will it take until he snaps and how realistic would it be? Less strict (housing) rules, sponsor deals and TV ads for more money. Isn't it always about the money? He could call it XV Sumo...

Please. He'd need the Saudis to bankroll it or something, because nobody in Japan would touch a Hakuho-fronted sumo venture with the proverbial ten foot pole at this point, and his own money will be barely enough to run it at "indy wrestling fed" levels, playing to audiences in the hundreds, not thousands. I'm sure Hakuoho, Tenshoho et al. have always dreamed of that kind of opportunity.

Besides, after the initial rush of existing fighters desperate for a payday, what's going to be his recruiting pitch for future talent? "I do even less about physical abuse than the organization that dumped me!"?

Edited March 10 by Asashosakari

[Reonito 1,335]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

The Kyokai brass were highly suspicious that Hakuho would prove troublesome as oyakata, and they made him sign that pledge to express their reservations in the most public manner possible. Inside of just three years, Hakuho managed to prove them spectacularly correct.

I guess my question, without being privy to the details of the investigation, is this: did Hakuho in fact prove himself to be troublesome as oyakata, beyond what we've regularly seen in other heya in recent years? I am honestly asking, as it hasn't been clear to me from reading what's been made public exactly what about the situation and his management of it has been so egregious as to demand the response we've seen. (Obviously, Hokuseiho's actions were completely beyond the pale and his punishment was warranted). I am fully prepared to accept an explanation as to why closing the heya is the appropriate response, but so far it hasn't been clear to me why demotion in elder rank, loss of salary, and a warning to do better, as we've seen in other recent cases, wasn't sufficient here.

[Godango 956]

*DISCLAIMER - I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS WILL EVER HAPPEN*

It's fun to think about a rival MSA (Mongolia Sumo Association) founded by Hakuho and Harumafuji back home. 

[Reonito 1,335]

8 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Please. He'd need the Saudis to bankroll it or something, because nobody in Japan would touch a Hakuho-fronted sumo venture with the proverbial ten foot pole at this point, and his own money will be barely enough to run it at "indy wrestling fed" levels, playing to audiences in the hundreds, not thousands. I'm sure Hakuoho, Tenshoho et al. have always dreamed of that kind of opportunity.

Besides, after the initial rush of existing fighters desperate for a payday, what's going to be his recruiting pitch for future talent? "I do even less about physical abuse than the organization that dumped me!"?

Guys this is getting uncomfortably close the 4/1 post I've been drafting 

[Reonito 1,335]

Just now, Godango said:

*DISCLAIMER - I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS WILL EVER HAPPEN*

It's fun to think about a rival MSA (Mongolia Sumo Association) founded by Hakuho and Harumafuji back home. 

Don't forget Asashoryu!

[Asashosakari 18,786]

6 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I guess my question, without being privy to the details of the investigation, is this: did Hakuho in fact prove himself to be troublesome as oyakata, beyond what we've regularly seen in other heya in recent years? I am honestly asking, as it hasn't been clear to me from reading what's been made public exactly what about the situation and his management of it has been so egregious as to demand the response we've seen. (Obviously, Hokuseiho's actions were completely beyond the pale and his punishment was warranted). I am fully prepared to accept an explanation as to why closing the heya is the appropriate response, but so far it hasn't been clear to me why demotion in elder rank, loss of salary, and a warning to do better, as we've seen in other recent cases, wasn't sufficient here.

IMHO, the core issue is exactly the fact that "Hokuseiho was allowed to be a psychopath with impunity" basically defines Hakuho's entire run as Miyagino-oyakata. He took over the stable in July 2022, and guess when the abuse is said to have started? Yeah, July 2022. He was given a chance to prove himself with the pledge, and he failed utterly and entirely. If that isn't a situation where decisive action by his superiors is called for, what is? Nakagawa was a similar case of failure becoming evident quickly, and they acted there, too.

That isn't to say that they've always handled things as they should have (repeat offender Shibatayama is a black mark in particular), but Miyagino is hardly comparable to situations like those at Michinoku and Isegahama where the shisho ran the place for decades before the incident in question. And even though the stuff reported about Isegahama-beya's incident sounded pretty bad as well, a key difference appears to be that it didn't recur after Isegahama received knowledge of it. That's a far cry from Miyagino's apparent inaction, where he knew early on and kept letting it happen for another year-plus.

All that aside: While violence among rikishi is always bad and needs to be addressed, it's much worse when a sekitori is the offender against a toriteki, because he's taking advantage of his position as a presumptively untouchable asset of the heya. It's an additional failing of Miyagino (and perhaps his worst) that his approach to the situation outright supported that notion that sekitori should feel free to do anything they want.

[Akinomaki 39,770]

3 hours ago, Itachiyama said:

The best solution within the already decided penalty!

The best or rather the only solution - everything else is none - would have been to have Hakuho go to Oshima as well.

I think he'll focus even more now on activities outside the NSK, which he was doing anyway for maybe most of the time and do only the absolute necessary for the NSK - be there during the basho. Nishonoseki has a similar record of external activities, but with more regard for his own heya. Miyagino-beya is dead, somebody maybe some day will branch out with a new one.

Edit: Ishiura has not enough basho to branch out

Edited March 10 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 39,770]

To make the destruction of Miyagino-beya complete, Ishiura is to move to yet another, not yet decided heya

o

 

It is unrealistic to think the NSK executives will persuade the ichimon to do something more reasonable, so this is most likely what we will get.

[Yamanashi 3,724]

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

Don't forget Asashoryu!

He'd likely get kicked out of the MSA within three months for hijinks of some sort.

[rhyen 1,809]

4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

To make the destruction of Miyagino-beya complete, Ishiura is to move to yet another, not yet decided heya

o

 

It is unrealistic to think the NSK executives will persuade the ichimon to do something more reasonable, so this is most likely what we will get.

So 11 years later, Terunofuji wish to be in the same heya as Hakuho will be fulfilled.

[Kamitsuumi 384]

Magaki oyakata (ex-Ishiura) to be sent to Asakayama-beya in the latest plan

Asakayama oyakata (ex-Kaio) says it's "absolutely not" about shutting down Miyagino-beya permanently, but rather it's a temporary measure.

[Akinomaki 39,770]

Just now, Akinomaki said:

Maezumo started in Osaka on day 2, after 4 years again

remainder from last basho:

Miyagino Mongolian St. Hakuho (聖白鵬 Seihakuho) started with a win. His real name Demidjamts has the meaning holy sea.

o

He wanted to have the kanji "holy" in it and the shisho Hakuho also had several propositions - the shikona was decided on March 1st, when Hakuho was actually no longer shisho.  23, 192cm, 127kg.

[dingo 1,160]

Off topic, but to me this shikona sounds multiple times more ridiculous and pompous than Hakuoho. Especially since it uses Hakuho's kanji. 

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

45 minutes ago, dingo said:

Off topic, but to me this shikona sounds multiple times more ridiculous and pompous than Hakuoho. Especially since it uses Hakuho's kanji. 

Indeed. Looks like somebody's trying hard to demolish his own legacy.

[Kintamayama 44,350]

Isegahama Ichimon submitted  a proposal with "four or five ideas" to the Kyokai yesterday, on how to proceed with the headache. Closing the heya and dispersing the rikishi to the sumo diaspora is only one of the "four or five ideas", so what I'm gathering is that Miyagino closing down completely is not a done deal. Yet. "This is a list of possible solutions we have come up with for the moment," explained Asakayama Oyakata. As for the other "three or four ideas", I have no idea what they be. "I don't know how this will all end, but I'm hoping it will be for the better for all Miyagino rikishi," said sub  Oyakata Tamagaki.

[Stupidface 34]

27 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Isegahama Ichimon submitted  a proposal with "four or five ideas" to the Kyokai yesterday, on how to proceed with the headache. Closing the heya and dispersing the rikishi to the sumo diaspora is only one of the "four or five ideas", so what I'm gathering is that Miyagino closing down completely is not a done deal. Yet. "This is a list of possible solutions we have come up with for the moment," explained Asakayama Oyakata. As for the other "three or four ideas", I have no idea what they be. "I don't know how this will all end, but I'm hoping it will be for the better for all Miyagino rikishi," said sub  Oyakata Tamagaki.

Thank you, if it does close temporarily, is there a chance it can reopen with Miyagino in charge and the same rikishi as before even if they've been moved to other heya's?

[Kintamayama 44,350]

1 minute ago, Stupidface said:

Thank you, if it does close temporarily, is there a chance it can reopen with Miyagino in charge and the same rikishi as before even if they've been moved to other heya's?

I'm pretty sure that after they are moved it will be too late, but with these guys you can never know..

[Akinomaki 39,770]

4 minutes ago, Stupidface said:

Thank you, if it does close temporarily, is there a chance it can reopen with Miyagino in charge and the same rikishi as before even if they've been moved to other heya's?

Only if they move to just one heya and Hakuho can join it later, to branch out again - like Kise did, who wasn't separated from his rikishi

[Stupidface 34]

24 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Only if they move to just one heya and Hakuho can join it later, to branch out again - like Kise did, who wasn't separated from his rikishi

 

27 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I'm pretty sure that after they are moved it will be too late, but with these guys you can never know..

Thank you both!

[Miyam 6]

15 hours ago, Ripe said:

Yes, the way Kyokai addresses the scandals evolved, but sadly not much changed since we're still having situations like this almost 20 years later.

Pardon me, but dead is dead. Am not minimizing what Hakuho did, prolonged bullying can lead to suicide and turning a blind eye to it is egregious to say the least.

But beating your deshi to death and turning a blind eye to bullying is not in the same ballpark, far from it.

Edited March 11 by Miyam

[Ripe 70]

1 hour ago, Miyam said:

Pardon me, but dead is dead. Am not minimizing what Hakuho did, prolonged bullying can lead to suicide and turning a blind eye to it is egregious to say the least.

But beating your deshi to death and turning a blind eye to bullying is not in the same ballpark, far from it.

And it was nothing but luck that nobody was killed in Michinoku (where bully used air-gun to shot a rikishi) or Miyagino (where Hokuseiho used fire on a rikishi)... and in both cases oyakata turned blind eye to bullies actions. So yes, not much have changed and it's only through blind luck that nobody ended up dead over last 20 years.

[Akinomaki 39,770]

3 hours ago, Ripe said:

it was nothing but luck that nobody was killed in Michinoku (where bully used air-gun to shot a rikishi) or Miyagino (where Hokuseiho used fire on a rikishi).

He didn't use it on him, he intimidated him with it. I have not seen any report that anybody sustained any real injury from Hokuseiho's evil pranks - inflicting pain and fear was his goal. The sort of pranks that happen every day in schools all over the world.

[Benihana 1,901]

20 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Please. He'd need the Saudis to bankroll it or something, because nobody in Japan would touch a Hakuho-fronted sumo venture with the proverbial ten foot pole at this point, and his own money will be barely enough to run it at "indy wrestling fed" levels, playing to audiences in the hundreds, not thousands. I'm sure Hakuoho, Tenshoho et al. have always dreamed of that kind of opportunity.

Besides, after the initial rush of existing fighters desperate for a payday, what's going to be his recruiting pitch for future talent? "I do even less about physical abuse than the organization that dumped me!"?

Yeah, i know it's a faaar stretch, the chances of this to happen are snowflake in hell-ish, but never underestimate an angry German Mongolian. 

12 hours ago, Kamitsuumi said:

Magaki oyakata (ex-Ishiura) to be sent to Asakayama-beya in the latest plan

Asakayama oyakata (ex-Kaio) says it's "absolutely not" about shutting down Miyagino-beya permanently, but rather it's a temporary measure.

Yeah, right. "Nobody has any intention of building a wall." But i hope he's right.

 

Maybe it's time for the NSK to invest in shisho training. You want to be shisho? At least 3 years of vocational training, like we do in Germany. And that period doesn't start per default on becoming oyakata, you have to apply for it. Leadership seminars, (financial) managing seminars, communication seminars. Extended stays in various respected, "clean" beya with no regards to ichimon. Sucking in experience and knowledge from different sources and perspectives. Learning from the great ones is a good base for becoming a great one. Absolutely NO heya preparations, except limited scouting. Use the third year to start establishing the new heya in a joint effort.

 

[Koorifuu 886]

When I think of a competing entity, I think of a second chance for those who have likely left with a feeling that the NSK failed them i.e. Anzai, Chiyoshishi, but that's just blind hope.