Basho Talk Kyushu 2017 (SPOILERS)

[Rocks 1,809]

1 minute ago, Bumpkin said:

Would happen if (and only if) Harumafuji goes intai.

Doesn't Kise jump ahead of Harmuafuji due to more wins? 

[Senkoho 552]

2 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Would happen if (and only if) Harumafuji goes intai.

I don't think you're right. Kisenosato scored more wins than Harumafuji or Kakuryu this basho and thus he will be second in line after Hakuho, which will be Y1w

[Bumpkin 438]

2 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Doesn't Kise jump ahead of Harmuafuji due to more wins? 

 

1 minute ago, Senkoho said:

I don't think you're right. Kisenosato scored more wins than Harumafuji or Kakuryu this basho and thus he will be second in line after Hakuho, which will be Y1w

You are both correct! My bad.

[Tiger Tanaka 226]

Kotoshogiku's senshuraku match was quite interesting. I've only been watching Sumo since March, but this was the first time I've ever seen Geek not do his patented pump up stretch before the final call to the match. Then a matta and a very slow tachiai for both. The match itself seemed lethargic and Ichinojo seemed to lack the new energy we've seen him fighting with this basho.

Does anyone know when rikishi of Kotoshogiku's status announce retirement? Can it be at any time (during tournament, after match, after tournament, etc.)? Any additional information would be greatly helpful! I hope Geek continues as he is one of my favorites, but after a long great career, fighting back to Komusubi and finishing with two wins in front of his hometown fans, this would be a pretty decent ending.

[SumpaX 23]

21 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

He made it to juryo at age 18. If he'd looked any more impressive on the road to that, we'd have to be considering him a Hakuho-level talent...

he seems a little small tho, but i would like to see him as a yokozuna one day. A threat to Hakuho seems a bit unrealistic tho.

[SumpaX 23]

 

2 hours ago, dada78641 said:

• Ichinojou is doing well again! At M4, no less! If he can only just keep this up...

I remember when he first showed up in the upper division thinking that he will be a ozeki in no time... I really hope he gets back there.

[ryafuji 817]

8 hours ago, Gernobono said:

Why are they giving a kantosho to a 8-7 M13? 

such an incredibly stupid move 

You don’t think getting his kachikoshi at 39 after all his injury problems showed fighting spirit? 

[RabidJohn 1,859]

Congratulations to Hakuho for yusho number 40.

I haven't been bored at all watching this basho. There've been some great results for the likes of Hokutofuji, Takakeisho, Tamawashi and Aminishiki, and I was extremely pleased for Mitakeumi making it a full house of KK for the year and for Onosho pulling out a senshuraku KK in what I suppose was his first proper joi basho.

[Bumpkin 438]

51 minutes ago, Tiger Tanaka said:

Kotoshogiku's senshuraku match was quite interesting. I've only been watching Sumo since March, but this was the first time I've ever seen Geek not do his patented pump up stretch before the final call to the match. Then a matta and a very slow tachiai for both. The match itself seemed lethargic and Ichinojo seemed to lack the new energy we've seen him fighting with this basho.

Does anyone know when rikishi of Kotoshogiku's status announce retirement? Can it be at any time (during tournament, after match, after tournament, etc.)? Any additional information would be greatly helpful! I hope Geek continues as he is one of my favorites, but after a long great career, fighting back to Komusubi and finishing with two wins in front of his hometown fans, this would be a pretty decent ending.

I, too, noticed no "big stretch" or "big salt toss". I, too, am wondring why. Kotoshogiku (and any other sekitori) can retire whenever he wants to. I think it's 50-50 as to whether or not the Geek retires.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

I was both happy and moved that Aminishiki secured his KK on the Senshuraku.  He had such a great start to the tournament, only to experience a losing streak in the second half of the tournament.  Things were definitely not looking good.  When I first saw the result (before watching the broadcast), I had my suspicions that Hakuho had had a hand in getting Chiyoshoma (his tachimochi) to throw the bout so that veteran Aminishiki could get his KK.  But watching the actual bout, it was clear to me that both men fought to win.  Despite the kimarite being deemed to be uwatedashinage, Aminishiki seemed to use a little kotenage arm lock as well as pushing straight down rather than across.  Leave it to Aminishiki to come up with the goods needed to win.  Aside from the Kantosho (which was contingent on his Senshuraku KK) and the KK which will keep him in the Makuuchi, Ami also walked away with five kensho - nothing to sneeze at.  The KK interview was special in that Aminishiki showed his emotional side.  Of course, he realized that he had proved that he could fight back and still be successful in the Top Division despite his 39 years.  One can only wonder if all the tension in his stable (what with the Harumafuji scandal) also got to him.  It was a new and endearing side to the veteran sekitori, a definite change from the jokester that delights in being interviewed.

[Gooner 39]

What exactly are the strengths of Daishomaru? I can't find any...

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Gooner

[rhyen 1,846]

39 minutes ago, Gooner said:

What exactly are the strengths of Daishomaru? I can't find any...

 

Luck.

[Benihana 1,937]

2 hours ago, Tiger Tanaka said:

Kotoshogiku's senshuraku match was quite interesting. I've only been watching Sumo since March, but this was the first time I've ever seen Geek not do his patented pump up stretch before the final call to the match.

It's called the Koto Bauer.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20160217/p2a/00m/0na/002000c

And yeah, it was weird not to see it, especially here on day 15.

[Rob S. 42]

12 hours ago, Gernobono said:

Why are they giving a kantosho to a 8-7 M13? 

such an incredibly stupid move 

At thirty-nine years old, the oldest Sekitori, who rather than intai, battles his way back through injury to top division sumo and gets a kachi-koshi on day 15.

That's the very definition of fighting spirit. 

I suppose they took that into consideration, not just his W-L record and Maegashira ranking for the basho. 

[Gurowake 4,111]

And people thought Kyokutenho's last Kanto-sho was a bit suspect...

[Fukurou 534]

37 minutes ago, Rob S. said:

At thirty-nine years old, the oldest Sekitori, who rather than intai, battles his way back through injury to top division sumo and gets a kachi-koshi on day 15.

That's the very definition of fighting spirit. 

I suppose they took that into consideration, not just his W-L record and Maegashira ranking for the basho. 

They're not supposed to take anything into account that isn't related to this basho (so battling his way back through the ranks over several basho isn't supposed to count). The prize is for how he did in the current basho, not career achievement. A KK is a KK, the only distinction being how many wins the KK involves. Getting it on day 15 (on the 5th attempt) doesn't get style points.

[Asojima 2,874]

Since the sansho are awarded by the press, the first requirement is a KK, the second is how many lines of press he generated, and the third is any other excuse that they may come up with.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Asojima

[Katooshu 3,339]

They seem to take career context into account quite regularly, with different standards for top division debutants and recently demoted ozeki, for example. It's not like Aminishiki is just some old guy either; he's THE oldest ever to fight his way back to makuuchi. His situation isnt typical, and it was certainly a point of interest during the basho.

I can see both sides and admittedly I didn't have him on my sansho radar.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Katooshu

[Asashosakari 19,726]

36 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

They're not supposed to take anything into account that isn't related to this basho (so battling his way back through the ranks over several basho isn't supposed to count).

According to whom?
 

21 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

They seem to take career context into account quite regularly, with different standards for top division debutants and recently demoted ozeki, for example.

Which arguably also applies to Tamawashi and his lack of a sansho, what with him having had multiple similar performances while ranked in sanyaku just recently.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Rob S. 42]

55 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

They're not supposed to take anything into account that isn't related to this basho (so battling his way back through the ranks over several basho isn't supposed to count). The prize is for how he did in the current basho, not career achievement. A KK is a KK, the only distinction being how many wins the KK involves. Getting it on day 15 (on the 5th attempt) doesn't get style points.

Yes, I understand they're not supposed to take anything into account that isn't related to this basho.

I believe i made that clear in the last paragraph of my last post, based on their decision, I believe they still do. 

Regardless, in this basho, he's still 39 years old, his knees are shot, he will most likely retire soon, and he still has more heart and puts in more effort and shows more fighting spirit than some Sekitori a lot younger than him that are higher ranked & had better winning records this basho.

I could see the argument if he received the Gino-sho "style points" award, but he didn't. 

He received a fighting spirit award. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Rob S.

[Fukurou 534]

28 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

According to whom?

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

The question is whether or not sansho prizes are only for actions during a particular basho.

Sumo Glossary, for one place you could have looked: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Sumo Forum's Glossary is another place you could have looked: "sansho award bestowed on senshurakku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities"

That bastion of veracity, Wikipedia even addresses it: (Sansho) "the three special prizes awarded to top (Makuuchi) division sumo wrestlers for exceptional performance during a sumo honbasho or tournament."

The NSK awards sansho for particular basho, not for a span of months- or years-long activity. They may actually come right out and say this on the Japanese side. Look at any rikishi's page - they not only list how many of which prizes the rikishi has won, if it was won within the last 6 basho they indicate which basho they won it in. Why bother to award it for a basho if it wasn't for *that* basho?

Of course, seeing as the recipients are determined by a group of people, I have absolutely no doubt they do what they want to do, which may or may not mean they're doing what they're supposed to do.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Fukurou

[orandashoho 720]

Ultimately, it's the public paying for the prizes, and given the choice between a very popular guy and a less popular one, which would you think draws more enthousiasm from the public? 

Edited November 26, 2017 by orandashoho

[Asashosakari 19,726]

30 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

The question is whether or not sansho prizes are only for actions during a particular basho.

Sumo Glossary, for one place you could have looked: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Did you not realize that I was implying that any such publicly known references are worthless in knowing what exactly the committee "is supposed to" consider or not consider in their decision-making? Oh my.

The only actual, fixed requirement is that 8 wins are necessary. Everything else may or may not exist as internal regulations, but you're sure not going to find it on the internet.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,276]

24 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

The question is whether or not sansho prizes are only for actions during a particular basho.

Sumo Glossary, for one place you could have looked: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Sumo Forum's Glossary is another place you could have looked: "sansho award bestowed on senshurakku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities"

That bastion of veracity, Wikipedia even addresses it: (Sansho) "the three special prizes awarded to top (Makuuchi) division sumo wrestlers for exceptional performance during a sumo honbasho or tournament."

The NSK awards sansho for particular basho, not for a span of months- or years-long activity. They may actually come right out and say this on the Japanese side. Look at any rikishi's page - they not only list how many of which prizes the rikishi has won, if it was won within the last 6 basho they indicate which basho they won it in. Why bother to award it for a basho if it wasn't for *that* basho?

Of course, seeing as the recipients are determined by a group of people, I have absolutely no doubt they do what they want to do, which may or may not mean they're doing what they're supposed to do.

From the times I've read the news explanations of it, Kanto-sho seems to go to who has 'ganbarized' the most. Another interpretation seems to be 'most improved' rikishi. If you are giving the prize based on recent improvements, I don't see how it is possible to not consider past performance.

[dada78641 884]

17 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

Sumo Glossary, for one place: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Sumo Forum's Glossary: "sansho award bestowed on senshurakku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities"

That bastion of veracity, Wikipedia: (Sansho) "the three special prizes awarded to top (Makuuchi) division sumo wrestlers for exceptional performance during a sumo honbasho or tournament."

[...]

These descriptions don't strictly seem to necessitate that they only give prizes based on the raw numbers. It just says they're given for "exceptional performance" or something to that effect. Aminishiki's performance was exceptional, for him, because he's a 39 year old rikishi who fought his way back to makuuchi and had to give everything he had to squeeze out a KK against far younger and stronger opponents. He had to exceed his own limits for this performance. And for a similar reason, Takakeishou and Hokutofuji both got prizes while Tamawashi didn't.

Besides, the sanshou are always a matter of opinion...just about every time they're handed out, you could make an argument that someone else would be a better recipient.