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Basho Talk Kyushu 2017 (SPOILERS)

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24 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

The question is whether or not sansho prizes are only for actions during a particular basho.

Sumo Glossary, for one place you could have looked: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Sumo Forum's Glossary is another place you could have looked: "sansho award bestowed on senshurakku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities"

That bastion of veracity, Wikipedia even addresses it: (Sansho) "the three special prizes awarded to top (Makuuchi) division sumo wrestlers for exceptional performance during a sumo honbasho or tournament."

The NSK awards sansho for particular basho, not for a span of months- or years-long activity. They may actually come right out and say this on the Japanese side. Look at any rikishi's page - they not only list how many of which prizes the rikishi has won, if it was won within the last 6 basho they indicate which basho they won it in. Why bother to award it for a basho if it wasn't for *that* basho?

Of course, seeing as the recipients are determined by a group of people, I have absolutely no doubt they do what they want to do, which may or may not mean they're doing what they're supposed to do.

From the times I've read the news explanations of it, Kanto-sho seems to go to who has 'ganbarized' the most. Another interpretation seems to be 'most improved' rikishi. If you are giving the prize based on recent improvements, I don't see how it is possible to not consider past performance.

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17 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

Sumo Glossary, for one place: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Sumo Forum's Glossary: "sansho award bestowed on senshurakku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities"

That bastion of veracity, Wikipedia: (Sansho) "the three special prizes awarded to top (Makuuchi) division sumo wrestlers for exceptional performance during a sumo honbasho or tournament."

[...]

These descriptions don't strictly seem to necessitate that they only give prizes based on the raw numbers. It just says they're given for "exceptional performance" or something to that effect. Aminishiki's performance was exceptional, for him, because he's a 39 year old rikishi who fought his way back to makuuchi and had to give everything he had to squeeze out a KK against far younger and stronger opponents. He had to exceed his own limits for this performance. And for a similar reason, Takakeishou and Hokutofuji both got prizes while Tamawashi didn't.

Besides, the sanshou are always a matter of opinion...just about every time they're handed out, you could make an argument that someone else would be a better recipient.

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5 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

I was both happy and moved that Aminishiki secured his KK on the Senshuraku.  He had such a great start to the tournament, only to experience a losing streak in the second half of the tournament.  Things were definitely not looking good.  When I first saw the result (before watching the broadcast), I had my suspicions that Hakuho had had a hand in getting Chiyoshoma (his tachimochi) to throw the bout so that veteran Aminishiki could get his KK.  But watching the actual bout, it was clear to me that both men fought to win.  Despite the kimarite being deemed to be uwatedashinage, Aminishiki seemed to use a little kotenage arm lock as well as pushing straight down rather than across.  Leave it to Aminishiki to come up with the goods needed to win.  Aside from the Kantosho (which was contingent on his Senshuraku KK) and the KK which will keep him in the Makuuchi, Ami also walked away with five kensho - nothing to sneeze at.  The KK interview was special in that Aminishiki showed his emotional side.  Of course, he realized that he had proved that he could fight back and still be successful in the Top Division despite his 39 years.  One can only wonder if all the tension in his stable (what with the Harumafuji scandal) also got to him.  It was a new and endearing side to the veteran sekitori, a definite change from the jokester that delights in being interviewed.

Chiyoshoma led with the forearm to the head. I don't think you do that if you are trying to throw the bout. He was definitely in it to win. Really pleased that Aminishiki got his KK and I think he thoroughly deserved the sansho. He won his first five straight (something that will have been taken into account) and from then on in he just looked tired. Really tired. But he still managed to get those other three wins that he needed for a KK.

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Well this certainly was #CuckooKyushu. With the crap that looks like a war between Takanohana and the rest of the NSK directors, Hakuho pulling his non monoii stuff after losing to Yoshikaze, and three yokozuna and one ozeki not finishing the basho, day 15 definitely made things better in the end. The younger generation plus Tamawashi once again are showing why they are the future, and I got the chills seeing that Aminishiki won and seeing the kanto-sho plus the tears was just icing on the cake. I really hope that 2018 will bring about some exciting sumo, and I would like to see all the yokozuna back.

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Some top 10 updates:

 - Miyagino beya moves solely into 5th place for most yusho per heya as Hakuho wins his 40th yusho

 - Hakuho extends the all time wins record to 1064, while 10th place Aminishiki extends his own record to 851 which is 9 behind 9th place Terao

 - Hakuho extends the makuuchi all time wins record to 970, Kisenosato did manage 4 wins for the basho which finally got him above the 700 win threshold to 703, which is 3 behind 7th place Musashimaru. Aminishiki in his return to Makuuchi got up to 671 wins, which is 28 behind 10th place Kyokutenho. 

 - Enho's 21 match win streak from debut ended in his first match of the basho, Shoji's streak has extended to 14 after winning the jonidan yusho for Kyushu 2017

 - Hakuho extends the yokozuna wins record to 776

 - Aminishiki has completed 1672 career bouts and moves to within 19 of 5th place Wakanosato

 - Aminishiki's return to makuuchi saw him complete 1373 matches in the top division, getting him to within 5 of 4th place Terao. Takekaze has completed 1227 matches, which moves him into sole 8th place above Kirinji, and now 33 behind 7th place Kotonowaka

 - Hakuho extends the most bouts as yokozuna record to 876, while 10th place Harumafuji did compete in two matches to make his total 388

 - Hakuho and Kotoshogiku were the only pairing of the Hak/Kise/Ama/Geek quartet to compete against each other this basho, and with the way things are going for the other two, there may not be too many more matches to come. Hak and Geek's match this basho was the 58th face off between the two of them, should they face each other next basho they will enter into a 4 way tie with the following pairings: Hakuho/Kisenosato, Musashimaru/Takanonami, Hakuho/Harumafuji

 - Aminishiki has competed in his 95th makuuchi basho. Should he be on the banzuke for Haru 2018 he will tie for 3rd place with the great Jesse Kuhaulua. Takekaze completed his 84th makuuchi basho and is tied for 9th place with Kirinji. Hakuho has completed his 81st basho in makuuchi and can enter the top 10 list should he be on the banzuke for Natsu 2018

 - Hakuho now has 62 basho as a yokozuna. If he is on the Hatsu 2018 banzuke, he will enter into a tie for 1st place with Kitanoumi at 63. Harumafuji has a chance to tie for 10th place on the list with Chiyonoyama at 32, but that all depends on how the results of the investigation into his recent scandal. Should he make it onto the Hatsu 2018 banzuke, he'll be in

 - Aminishiki moves into sole 4th place on the most basho as a sekitori list with 107. He is now 3 behind 3rd place Terao and can tie him if he is ranked on the banzuke for Natsu 2018 

 - Hanakaze has extended the all time basho record to 190, the other active top 10 member is Kyokuhikari at 154, which is a three way tie for 8th place. 

 - Aminishiki won his second kanto-sho for the first time in 103 basho, but the bigger news is that this was his 12th sansho, which gets him into a tie for 10th place on the all time sansho list!!! Well done!

 - Harumafuji gave out one kinboshi this basho, which "dishonorably" moves him into sole second place with 40

Edited by WAKATAKE
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It is standard to give a new makuuchi a kanto-sho for an excellent performance - no longer simply guaranteed with 10 wins like Aminishiki got, but with a record all others around him would get no sansho. That makes it related to just the present basho and still considers the career.

Aminishiki just this basho is the oldest ever to return to makuuchi, so this special category might also get a sansho with a record nobody else would get one.

Edited by Akinomaki

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21 hours ago, Fukurou said:

Too busy to go look up the references for yourself?

The question is whether or not sansho prizes are only for actions during a particular basho.

Sumo Glossary, for one place you could have looked: "Fighting Spirit Award. One of the three " Sansho " or special prizes which are usually awarded on the last days of a honbasho to rikishi who has performed exceptionally well during the tournament."

Sumo Forum's Glossary is another place you could have looked: "sansho award bestowed on senshurakku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities"

That bastion of veracity, Wikipedia even addresses it: (Sansho) "the three special prizes awarded to top (Makuuchi) division sumo wrestlers for exceptional performance during a sumo honbasho or tournament."

 

Wait what? You cite this (marked bold) and claim this as verifying your stance? Really? The bold phrase pretty clearly is beyond the basho's limitations and exactly fitting for exceptional cases like shin-makuuchi (actually the most regular and obvious example) and, yes, cases like Aminishiki.

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It was a really good basho, all of the kyujo notwithstanding. For me, the highlight bouts were both Hakuho the weird loss to Yoshikaze and the Day 13 amazing comeback, Takakeisho I think). The Hak is such a character, and so entertaining, as well as the definitive Bad Ass of the year.

And, I wonder what it says about all of us sumo fans that the Harumafuji Scandal thread is longer than the Basho Talk Kyushu 2017 (SPOILERS) thread?

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5 minutes ago, Thundersnow said:

It was a really good basho, all of the kyujo notwithstanding. For me, the highlight bouts were both Hakuho the weird loss to Yoshikaze and the Day 13 amazing comeback, Takakeisho I think). The Hak is such a character, and so entertaining, as well as the definitive Bad Ass of the year.

And, I wonder what it says about all of us sumo fans that the Harumafuji Scandal thread is longer than the Basho Talk Kyushu 2017 (SPOILERS) thread?

Hakuho beat Takarafuji on Day 13.

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