Sakura

Basho Talk - Hatsu Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, ryafuji said:
3 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Arawashi entered the record books today for slowest first kinboshi for a foreigner, taking 85 basho to do so. He is seventh place for oldest first kinboshi, and tied for seventh place for slowest first kinboshi as a rikishi in general.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1764872.html

Only the seventh? That surprised me. Can any kind soul list the six who took longer to get a kinboshi?


This is what I make as the top ten. I may have missed some who are tied with Minatofuji or Daizen, but above that the list should be complete.

 

Rikishi		Hatsu Dohyo	Hatsu Kinboshi	Basho #

1) Tamaryu	1970 Hatsu	1986 Kyushu	102
2) Oshio	1962 Hatsu	1978 Natsu	99
3) Takanonami	1987 Haru	2002 Kyushu	95
4) Hananokuni	1975 Haru	1989 Aki	88
5) Kaiki	1965 Aki	1979 Kyushu	86
=) Kurosegawa	1966 Hatsu	1980 Haru	86
7) Daitetsu	1971 Nagoya	1985 Nagoya	85
=) Arawashi	2002 Kyushu	2017 Hatsu	85
9) Minatofuji	1984 Haru	1998 Hatsu	84
10) Daizen	1981 Haru	1994 Kyushu	83

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dwale said:

Alright, so we're back in familiar territory, namely Hakuho and Kisenosato leading alone. No one else in upper sanyaku is wrestling well enough to stay in it. If Hakuho is near 100% then this may well be another zensho-yusho for his collection.

Favorite win of the day was Harumafuji for that weird performance art finish (I can't wait to see the still images).

 

 

Hakuho might be near 100% of his aging, injury-nagged self. But he's far from the lean mean zensho machine of earlier times. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the YDC should just shut up until after the Basho is over. They are putting undue pressure on Harumafuji and this affects his decision making to continue with pain rather than go kyujo (like Nagoya 2015)

14 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

So that is why he looked definitely more spirited than yesterday.
As for the danger, I suppose that by now he knows what he is doing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, rhyen said:

I think the YDC should just shut up until after the Basho is over. They are putting undue pressure on Harumafuji and this affects his decision making to continue with pain rather than go kyujo (like Nagoya 2015)

I don't think this kind of talk  really bugs a Yokozuna. They are already putting the pressure on themselves. I think it gets their fans hyped though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kotoyuuki has been thoroughly unimpressive ever since his bark was banned. Did the kyokai take away his mojo? 

And if not for the lucky win against Shohozan, Kakuryuu would be 2-4 right now. Is he hiding an injury as well? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watching Kotoshogiku getting wrecked by Mitakeumi is painful. He should call it quits, for his career or at least this tournament and his rank. He has to sit out not less than one basho and heal. On the other hand...Mitakeumi came in like a wrecking ball, which is nice.

Kisenosato, please don't choke. Yokozuna-worthy sumo so far.

I wonder what would happen if Ura for once got in attack mode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:


This is what I make as the top ten. I may have missed some who are tied with Minatofuji or Daizen, but above that the list should be complete.

 


Rikishi		Hatsu Dohyo	Hatsu Kinboshi	Basho #

1) Tamaryu	1970 Hatsu	1986 Kyushu	102
2) Oshio	1962 Hatsu	1978 Natsu	99
3) Takanonami	1987 Haru	2002 Kyushu	95
4) Hananokuni	1975 Haru	1989 Aki	88
5) Kaiki	1965 Aki	1979 Kyushu	86
=) Kurosegawa	1966 Hatsu	1980 Haru	86
7) Daitetsu	1971 Nagoya	1985 Nagoya	85
=) Arawashi	2002 Kyushu	2017 Hatsu	85
9) Minatofuji	1984 Haru	1998 Hatsu	84
10) Daizen	1981 Haru	1994 Kyushu	83

 

Thank you - some interesting names there. I'd forgotten about Takanonami. He never got a kinboshi on the way up but he got a couple right at the end of his career against his old rival Musashimaru.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see a reason why Harumafuji should be forced to retire. His numbers from last year compare pretty well to Kakuryu. Harumafuji had 67 wins in 2016 compared to Kakuryu's 57. Even if we ignore Kakuryu's Nagoya basho when he pulled out on the 5th day they'd still have around the same average number of wins per basho at around 11. Next to that they both got one Yusho but Harumafuji also had a jun-Yusho, while Kakuryu didn't. 

I'd say neither should be forced to retire but if the YDC is calling for Harumafuji to quit then Kakuryu should be in the same boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, YoungSumo said:

I'd say neither should be forced to retire but if the YDC is calling for Harumafuji to quit then Kakuryu should be in the same boat.

Are you kidding? Kak has been riding that boat for a year. If in wasn't for him winning the last basho they'd be squawking like crazy right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Are you kidding? Kak has been riding that boat for a year. If in wasn't for him winning the last basho they'd be squawking like crazy right now.

It's almost as if the YDC has got so used to dai-yokozuna, what with Asashoryu and then Hakuho following in quick succession, that they've forgotten that Harumafuji and Kakuryu are rather more representative of your "average" yokozuna, historically speaking.

Edited by ryafuji
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, YoungSumo said:

I don't see a reason why Harumafuji should be forced to retire. His numbers from last year compare pretty well to Kakuryu. Harumafuji had 67 wins in 2016 compared to Kakuryu's 57. Even if we ignore Kakuryu's Nagoya basho when he pulled out on the 5th day they'd still have around the same average number of wins per basho at around 11. Next to that they both got one Yusho but Harumafuji also had a jun-Yusho, while Kakuryu didn't. 

I'd say neither should be forced to retire but if the YDC is calling for Harumafuji to quit then Kakuryu should be in the same boat.

Over the last 2 years, Kakuryu completed 9 basho, while Harumafuji and Hakuho completed 10 basho each. Kakuryu averaged 10.89 wins/full basho, Harumafuji averaged 11.20 wins and Hakuho averaged 12.80 wins.

Over the last year, Kakuryu finished 5 basho, averaging 11.00 wins. Harumafuji completed 6 basho, averaging 11.17 wins. Hakuho finished 5 basho, averaging 12.40 wins.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did Tamawashi hurt himself? It was really odd to watch. He didn't actually slip that I could see (with my crap eyes), but at least one of his legs appeared to stop working...

Shodai's lost his tachi-ai hesitation against Kise today, but he still came up too high and slow... Kise's looking really good. Clearly there's a way to go and any one of their remaining opponents could act as spoilers, but I'm hoping it does come down to Hak and Kise on zenshuraku. You've got to hand it to Kise - he does keep giving himself the opportunities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

This is what I make as the top ten. I may have missed some who are tied with Minatofuji or Daizen, but above that the list should be complete.

All correct. Kirishima follows with 82.

Edit: For the contemporary angle - before Arawashi just now, the active "leaders" were Takekaze and Sadanoumi with 73 basho apiece (now good for shared 20th place).

Edited by Asashosakari
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

If Kak and Ama manage to stay competing for the whole basho we'll be getting Hak-Kise on day 15. Either one of those guys drop out then Hak-Kise will happen on another day other than senshuraku, which I'd rather not see.

Unless they BOTH drop out, the we will Have Hakuho vs Kisenosato on Senshuraku as the Musubi No Ichiban. If it came down to that, how AWESOME would that be?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, YoungSumo said:

So for the first time this basho I'm also trying to keep track a bit of guys in the lower divisions who are rising quickly and could impact the Sanyaku ranks soon once the retirement wave of the top guys starts. 

Starting with Oyanagi (23) who started his career as a Sandamne Tsukedashi winning the Sandamne Yusho in his first basho and the Makushita Yusho in his second basho. Had an impressive 11-4 record last basho at his Juryo debut, yet to have had a MK and is currently sitting at 3-3 at his highest rank so far (J6e).

Next up Juryo newcomer Daiamami (24). He's a bit of an odd case. Starting off as Makushita Tsukedashi he's gone 4-3 in all 6 of his basho so far but seems to have found a second gear at Juryo, currently sitting at 5-1. 

In Makushita there are probably too many to cover but I'll try to pick out a few that look promising to me, don't get mad if I miss someone though. 

Ishibashi (22) is a Sandamne Tsukedashi who has won 5 or 6 bouts in all his basho, currently 3-0 at Ms7w. Possible Juryo debutant nex basho if he keeps this up. 

Tamaki (23) has a JK and JD Yusho and is steadily rising through the ranks. Currently 2-1 at Ms10w.

Kizaki (23) won a Yusho at Jonidan and Sandamne and is currently 3-0 at Ms21e.

Hatooka (22) is another case of someone who has won 5 or 6 bouts in every basho. Currently 2-1 at Ms50w.

Asahiryu (21) the next Mongolian Yokozuna. Incredibly dominant in every basho. Coming off a Yusho-Doten at Sandamne last basho he's currently 3-0 at Ms51e.

I'd also like to look at the guys who are still undefeated. They could become greats or hit a wall as soon as Sandamne but it's still worth to keep an eye on them. 

Nishikifuji (20) went 3-0 at Maezumo, 7-0 Y in Jonokuchi and currently 3-0 at Jd10e.

Midorifuji (20) has exactly the same numbers except for the play-off loss at Jonokuchi. 

And finally the only Jk debutant who is still undefeated at 3-0 and at the young age of 18 could prove to be a rising star, Narutaki. 

 

Will be interesting to see how these guys perform the rest of this basho.

 

Lots of good eggs I'd say. Ikegawa and Kiribayama are also on my sights. Especially Ikegawa, lets just hope the big guy remains healthy.

Disappointed that Kotokamatani hit the wall so early, but he is just 19 this year so he will go places in 4-5 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YoungSumo said:

I don't see a reason why Harumafuji should be forced to retire. His numbers from last year compare pretty well to Kakuryu. Harumafuji had 67 wins in 2016 compared to Kakuryu's 57. Even if we ignore Kakuryu's Nagoya basho when he pulled out on the 5th day they'd still have around the same average number of wins per basho at around 11. Next to that they both got one Yusho but Harumafuji also had a jun-Yusho, while Kakuryu didn't. 

I'd say neither should be forced to retire but if the YDC is calling for Harumafuji to quit then Kakuryu should be in the same boat.

 

1 hour ago, Fukurou said:

Over the last 2 years, Kakuryu completed 9 basho, while Harumafuji and Hakuho completed 10 basho each. Kakuryu averaged 10.89 wins/full basho, Harumafuji averaged 11.20 wins and Hakuho averaged 12.80 wins.

Over the last year, Kakuryu finished 5 basho, averaging 11.00 wins. Harumafuji completed 6 basho, averaging 11.17 wins. Hakuho finished 5 basho, averaging 12.40 wins.

 

These numbers only tell part of the story in my opinion. Harumafuji gets, at least on paper (Terunofuji, Takarafuji, Aminishiki...), an easier schedule, if you check these completed bashos (so 10 for Harumafuji and 9 for Kakuryu)

Harumafuji fought 71 Maegashira and gave away 14 kinboshi

Kakuryu fought 51 Maegashira and gave away  3 (He even managed a 9-6 without giving away one)

Obviously there are some explanations for these... For sure the YDC is not just one voice, but I think there are some reasons for concern over Harumafuji's performances, more than over Kakuryu at this stage...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ryafuji said:

It's almost as if the YDC has got so used to dai-yokozuna, what with Asashoryu and then Hakuho following in quick succession, that they've forgotten that Harumafuji and Kakuryu are rather more representative of your "average" yokozuna, historically speaking.

YDC better prepare to lower their standarts. A monster like Hakuho will never tread the Dohyo again after he quits, whenever that may be. It may be 5 or 10 years from now on. Hakuho looks like a man who could go till he is 42-45. And if there will ever be a man who is stronger and more gifted in Sumo than  Hakuho then god have mercy on us all. (Still supporting the idea that Hakuho should get his own damn title, he is so far and beyond being Yokozuna at this point.)

Harumafuji for example would be one of the greatest Yokozunae of all time if Hakuho didn't exist (not saying that Harumafuji ain't great, but you get the point. He would have like 30 Yusho), Kisenosato of course being the ''Little Yokozuna'' alongside him.

Edited by Jyuunomori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Jyuunomori said:

YDC better prepare to lower their standarts. A monster like Hakuho will never tread the Dohyo again after he quits, whenever that may be. It may be 5 or 10 years from now on. Hakuho looks like a man who could go till he is 42-45. And if there will ever be a man who is stronger and more gifted in Sumo than  Hakuho then god have mercy on us all. (Still supporting the idea that Hakuho should get his own damn title, he is so far and beyond being Yokozuna at this point.)

Harumafuji for example would be one of the greatest Yokozunae of all time if Hakuho didn't exist (not saying that Harumafuji ain't great, but you get the point. He would have like 30 Yusho), Kisenosato of course being the ''Little Yokozuna'' alongside him.

Harumafuji has 8 yushos and 7 jun-yushos. Of the runner-ups, one was a 13-2 playoff loss to Hakuho. Three were 12-3's and three were 11-4's. He would have only two more titles. Ten yushos overall. Those are the facts. Kisenosato on the other hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, YoungSumo said:

So for the first time this basho I'm also trying to keep track a bit of guys in the lower divisions who are rising quickly and could impact the Sanyaku ranks soon once the retirement wave of the top guys starts. 

Starting with Oyanagi (23) who started his career as a Sandamne Tsukedashi winning the Sandamne Yusho in his first basho and the Makushita Yusho in his second basho. Had an impressive 11-4 record last basho at his Juryo debut, yet to have had a MK and is currently sitting at 3-3 at his highest rank so far (J6e).

Next up Juryo newcomer Daiamami (24). He's a bit of an odd case. Starting off as Makushita Tsukedashi he's gone 4-3 in all 6 of his basho so far but seems to have found a second gear at Juryo, currently sitting at 5-1. 

In Makushita there are probably too many to cover but I'll try to pick out a few that look promising to me, don't get mad if I miss someone though. 

Ishibashi (22) is a Sandamne Tsukedashi who has won 5 or 6 bouts in all his basho, currently 3-0 at Ms7w. Possible Juryo debutant nex basho if he keeps this up. 

Tamaki (23) has a JK and JD Yusho and is steadily rising through the ranks. Currently 2-1 at Ms10w.

Kizaki (23) won a Yusho at Jonidan and Sandamne and is currently 3-0 at Ms21e.

Hatooka (22) is another case of someone who has won 5 or 6 bouts in every basho. Currently 2-1 at Ms50w.

Asahiryu (21) the next Mongolian Yokozuna. Incredibly dominant in every basho. Coming off a Yusho-Doten at Sandamne last basho he's currently 3-0 at Ms51e.

I'd also like to look at the guys who are still undefeated. They could become greats or hit a wall as soon as Sandamne but it's still worth to keep an eye on them. 

Nishikifuji (20) went 3-0 at Maezumo, 7-0 Y in Jonokuchi and currently 3-0 at Jd10e.

Midorifuji (20) has exactly the same numbers except for the play-off loss at Jonokuchi. 

And finally the only Jk debutant who is still undefeated at 3-0 and at the young age of 18 could prove to be a rising star, Narutaki.

Kids from college sumo programs are doing well.  They seemed to rifle through the lower ranks in their race to juryo.   Some drops out or stalls along the way, but a few make it to Makuuchi, seemingly every basho. 

One comment on Asahiryu being potentially the next Mongolian Yokozuna .... the current batch of Mongolian Yokozuna average height is 188 cm.  Haru & Kak are "short' ones at 186 cm..   But all three are quick for their size, and not too heavy in the middle (you know what I mean :-)).  Even Asashoryu was (hopefully, still is) 183.5 cm tall.   Height & accompanying long reach matter IMO.   For Asahiryu at mere 182 cm to be the next Mongolian Yokozuna, he will have to have real exceptional speed, skill, and strength.   I.e, IMHO, he may be lacking size to be an Yokozuna in today's ozumo scene.  

 

 

Edited by robnplunder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, YoungSumo said:

Hakuho vs Kisenosato basho. .................. Hakuho is the slight favorite

Dear YoungSumo

For "slight" read "massive"

Respectfully

OldSumo

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
West yokozuna
Harumafuji
(Isegahama Beya)
has withdrawn the 7th Day of the January Tournament.

It's official. Harumafuji is out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rocks said:
West yokozuna
Harumafuji
(Isegahama Beya)
has withdrawn the 7th Day of the January Tournament.

It's official. Harumafuji is out.

 Also Tochinoshin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now