Basho Talk - Hatsu Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[Rocks 1,804]

He must be sure it is going to take skipping more than 1 basho to heal up which means losing his rank. I think he figures if that is going to happen he wants to do it on the doyho. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Rocks

[Fukurou 534]

54 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I don't get Terunofuji.

He needs what, 6 months, to get himself fixed and properly recuperate? He could have gone kyujo from that 1st 8-7KK, missed 2 basho and probably easily got his rank straight back with 10 from sekiwake. Even if he missed three he'd probably still be low M/upper J and could get back to ozeki within a year, and probably yokozuna not long after.

If he would only give himself a chance to mend...

It's not his decision to make. If his shisho tells him he has to keep participating in the basho, that's what he has to do. OTOH, there are cases where rikishi are allowed to step aside for long periods to heal, such as Yokozuna Takanohana, who was allowed to miss 7 consecutive basho when he traveled to France to have knee surgery, but that's not usual. (Taka was gone so long the NSK started making "compete or retire" noises)  It was more common in the days when rikishi could miss a basho without losing their rank (kosho).

Edited January 25, 2017 by Fukurou

[robnplunder 974]

I think Teruno loves competition too much.   It reminds of my bad habit of keep trying to play soccer when it was in my best interest to let my injury heal (sprain, usually).   I couldn't wait until I get fully healed.   The high I get by playing - in my case, scoring goals as a forward - is too much to resist.   I am not saying Teruno is like me but it begs the question why he keeps on playing through injury.   Then again, many rikishis do just that only to go kyujo after an injury gets worse during competition.

[robnplunder 974]

6 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

It's not his decision to make. If his shisho tells him he has to keep participating in the basho, that's what he has to do.

I am not so sure about that.  If that is the case, it's really in nobody's interest to do so.  For longer term health of the rikishi, sumo, and heya, it is better to let a major injury heal properly.  If everyone involved is that insecure about the situation, that is a serious issue which needs to be dealt with.   But it's a speculation on your and my part and we just need to see what Teruno does in the future.  

Edited January 25, 2017 by robnplunder

[Fukurou 534]

27 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

I am not so sure about that.  If that is the case, it's really in nobody's interest to do so.  For longer term health of the rikishi, sumo, and heya, it is better to let a major injury heal properly.  If everyone involved is that insecure about the situation, that is a serious issue which needs to be dealt with.   But it's a speculation on your and my part and we just need to see what Teruno does in the future.  

For about 30 years rikishi injured during a basho were allowed to miss the next basho without losing rank, supposedly to heal. They did away with that, some said because some rikishi were milking it and needed to get back out there (translation = get out there and make more money for the heya). It was a bit of a controversial decision. If they cared about allowing people to heal properly, why did they do away with kosho, the incentive to take time to do just that?

(Interestingly, they did away with kosho not too long after Takanohana missed so many basho. Related? Unrelated?)

Edited January 25, 2017 by Fukurou

[orandashoho 720]

He [Terunofuji} got injured right after being made ozeki, and hung on by a thread just making KK when he was kadoban.
Time will tell if this hasn't been detrimental to his career in the long run, or that with hindsight it would have been better to drop all the way down taking the time to heal, and then fight his way back up.

Edited January 25, 2017 by orandashoho

[Ryoshishokunin 259]

I unavowedly cheer against any rikishi that hasn't taken time to heal after a major injury; doubly so if it's the sort of ligament damage that simply *does not heal*.  It's stupid, bad for them in the long term, and robs us all of better performances to watch.  It's one reason I'm a big Tochinoshin fan: he screwed up his knee, got it fixed, and got back to (nearly) the top.  The attitude of the sumo higher-ups to injuries, particularly knee injuries, drives me absolutely bonkers.  

[robnplunder 974]

3 hours ago, Fukurou said:

For about 30 years rikishi injured during a basho were allowed to miss the next basho without losing rank, supposedly to heal. They did away with that, some said because some rikishi were milking it and needed to get back out there (translation = get out there and make more money for the heya). It was a bit of a controversial decision. If they cared about allowing people to heal properly, why did they do away with kosho, the incentive to take time to do just that?

I see.  Something is not right with the above change.   There are 6 basho/year, and junkyos.  Rikishi has to train all year around, taking so much pounding.  Something has to give.   I am not surprised that many rikishis seem to be wrestling with injury.   I can almost assume that a rikishi is playing injured if he is having a bad basho.   

Edited January 26, 2017 by robnplunder

[Kishinoyama 582]

4 hours ago, Fukurou said:

.... some rikishi were milking it and needed to get back out there (translation = get out there and make more money for the heya). It was a bit of a controversial decision. If they cared about allowing people to heal properly, why did they do away with kosho, the incentive to take time to do just that?

(Interestingly, they did away with kosho not too long after Takanohana missed so many basho. Related? Unrelated?)

I think the Ozeki at the time were the main offenders.

As for Takanohana, he could miss as many tournaments as required to heal properly as a yokozuna. 

[Fukurou 534]

1 hour ago, Kishinoyama said:

I think the Ozeki at the time were the main offenders.

As for Takanohana, he could miss as many tournaments as required to heal properly as a yokozuna. 

I think you may be right about the Ozeki. Withdraw with an injury if you're not doing well, take the next basho off. Rikishi still do the first part of that. Here's an old thread about the abolishment of kosho

Yes, Taka, being Yokozuna, wasn't in fear of being demoted, but that wasn't the threat. I remember the NSK guys at the time bringing up the subject of retirement, as in 'get back here and take part or retire, your choice'. I don't recall the 3rd option being mentioned (involuntary retirement), but that could have happened too. That threat has been made, and acted on, by shisho and the NSK to all manner of rikishi in the past.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Fukurou

[MumboJumbo 34]

Terunofuji seemed to first hurt his knee during Aki 2015 when he faced Kisenosato. His knee just completely buckled. If he wasn't injured, he may have won that basho. I guess Kise sucked the "next yokozuna" powers from him....

I don't see why he didn't at least take one basho off after one of his kk's. He wouldn't have dropped his rank and maybe he would have healed up. Whoever or whatever is making him continue on will surely ruin his potential and career. Crazy shisho? Maybe Teru's pride is playing a role?

[dingo 1,117]

Maybe he wants to tough it out in the hope that his injury will get better by itself without having to drop ranks. I guess it happens in some rare cases, for a recent example Endo seems to have magically gotten better. But imo that's an empty hope, especially if he doesn't even take one basho off which he can do without losing rank. 

[Asashosakari 18,660]

14 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Well it was already a 'rule' when I first saw sumo in the mid-80s and there were a fair few ex-college-sumo rikishi back then too. I agree, they shouldn't care, and I hope one of them can make it, but the more time goes on the higher a mental hurdle it must be for them to face, because it's not a superstition: it's a cold, hard fact that only one of them ever did it!

I'd argue the main hurdle is simply age. High-level collegiate sumo may not be quite as grueling on the body as pro sumo, but it's still pretty hard, and consequently they normally don't age that much better than those who join out of middle or high school. And even if they're coming in at age 22 with makuuchi-level skills, they'll need at least one year (for makushita starters) or two years (for those out of maezumo) just to reach mid-makuuchi. After that the average college guy will have maybe 5 to 6 years to reach his peak...that's just not much time to break through from the maegashira ranks all the way to yokozuna. Just look at how long it took Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku, Harumafuji and Kakuryu just to make it to ozeki, and those guys were in makuuchi at 21 or younger, so they all had a headstart of at least 3 years on the typical university grad.

That said, the current generation of college guys probably has the best chance in quite a while, simply because a lot of the current yokozuna and ozeki are of very similar ages and we could be headed for a power vacuum in the next couple of years that allows a bunch of rikishi to make the leap at younger ages than they normally would.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Asashosakari

[RabidJohn 1,630]

8 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I'd argue the main hurdle is simply age.

I have to admit that's a very good argument which explains the absence of slow burners from the yokozuna ranks (and also allows for a reasonable number of the same to make ozeki).

However, consider the dai-yokozuna like Taiho and Kitanoumi who reached the top usually some time in their third year in makuuchi. Wajima is one of those. Now I know such dai-yokozuna are exceedingly rare, but I wouldn't know how to analyse the numbers, so for all I know it may be that (a) Wajima's status is statistically improbable, (b) it's just about right, (c) there should be 3.45 ex-college rikishi with similar records, or (d) we're just about due another one!

As you say, it's going to be all change at the top over the next few years, which is why I'm wondering.

[Asashosakari 18,660]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Now I know such dai-yokozuna are exceedingly rare, but I wouldn't know how to analyse the numbers, so for all I know it may be that (a) Wajima's status is statistically improbable, (b) it's just about right, (c) there should be 3.45 ex-college rikishi with similar records, or (d) we're just about due another one!

Yeah, I have no answer to that, either.  However, one possible answer may be that, at least historically, young kids who are displaying such an immense early talent that everybody's telling them, "you've got what it takes to make it all the way to the top", might be less inclined to make the university/amateur detour on the way to the pro ranks. But then we're talking about so very few individuals that it's probably pointless to try to generalize anything about them.

Of course, the most likely answer we'd get from people inside the ozumo world is probably that collegiate coaching just isn't as good as pro coaching, and that those four years at university are partially wasted time as far as rikishis' talent development goes. Or that there's simply a major difference between being a student-athlete and being a full-time professional because the former have to concern themselves with other stuff than just their sumo.

In any case, the idea that collegiate sportsmen tend to be more reliably predictable in their future career path but are also often blessed with lower upside isn't limited to sumo; baseball has much the same thing going, and probably other sports as well.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Rocks 1,804]

11 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

Who would be the sumo equivalent of this guy?

[MumboJumbo 34]

Haha I didn't think I would see Johnny Football popping up on the forum. I feel like you could see the disappointment that he has been so far in his sport from a mile away. 

The differences between the world of collegiate sumo and collegiate football seems to be so different that I think finding a clear comparison would be very hard. 

[Asashosakari 18,660]

This sudden onset of football talk has given me a serious Temperance Brennan moment here. ("I don't know what that means.")

But after reading up on the guy - Ichihara/Kiyoseumi as a sumo comparison?

[orandashoho 720]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Of course, the most likely answer we'd get from people inside the ozumo world is probably that collegiate coaching just isn't as good as pro coaching, and that those four years at university are partially wasted time as far as rikishis' talent development goes. Or that there's simply a major difference between being a student-athlete and being a full-time professional because the former have to concern themselves with other stuff than just their sumo.

Of course. Maybe those who never had any doubts will not bother with college, but the difference is that with a college degree you will have a basis for a good career to fall back on if you find that professional sumo is not for you.

[Rocks 1,804]

1 minute ago, John Gunning said:

Not a collegian rikishi.

Manziel was only in 2 years himself. Which brings up a good question. Do college rikishi get the bump if they don't graduate?

[Akinomaki 39,529]

7 hours ago, Rocks said:

Do college rikishi get the bump if they don't graduate?

Asahifuji (Isegahama)

Edited January 27, 2017 by Akinomaki

[PawnSums 59]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 02:06, TENHO said:

Kkk i wish

you may want to rethink that first part.

[TENHO 59]

3 hours ago, PawnSums said:

you may want to rethink that first part.

And you need to ask before think about racism

[PawnSums 59]

10 hours ago, TENHO said:

And you need to ask before think about racism

 

12 hours ago, John Gunning said:

kkk is the Mongolian way of writing LOL or 笑

Ok, thanks for letting me know. I don't really know much about Mongolian.

[PawnSums 59]

12 hours ago, John Gunning said:

kkk is the Mongolian way of writing LOL or 笑

I thought it meant Komusubi Kachi-Koshi