Kyushu 2022 discussion (results)

[Fashiritētā 169]

I would say , mental match preparation is one of the keys, not necessarily hazing mental toughness.

[Godango 956]

4 hours ago, dada78641 said:

Yeah, absolutely it was a real physical injury, not just Takayasu being sad. This guy's been a rikishi for longer than today, he's not gonna lie down on the dohyo throwing a fit just because he lost a bout, even if it was an important one. Let's not kid ourselves.

These guys are always on a knife's edge with the tachiai, especially when they go in head first. It's not at all surprising that something like this could happen, even if most of the time it goes well. It's like how a kachiage usually doesn't result in a KO, but... sometimes it does. It's actually more of a miracle that this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.

100%, if anything, Takayasu's concussion would have prevented his trained sumo stoicism; and caused a more emotional response. 

And I for one, didn't even think his response was all that emotional? Granted, I only watched it once live and turned the broadcast off as soon as Abi beat Takakeisho. 

Contrary to what someone mentioned earlier (I'm too lazy to scroll), crying and/or being emotional after a concussion is relatively common. For the sake of providing a source, from the University of Michigan "Feeling emotional is also common: 'Right after the injury, you might cry out of the blue and not know why,'".

Look at our variables:

• a former ozeki who has been in this situation several times before and reacted with the expected stoicism afterwards
• a fairly significant blow to the head/neck, followed by unsteadiness on feet, constant blinking and heavy exhaling/jaw stretching (as if trying to clear his head)
• the appearance of tears
• we have:
  • an incident that could easily lead to concussion, in
  • a combat sport where concussions are common occurrences, followed by
  • known symptoms of concussion

Occam's razor, he likely had a concussion.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Godango

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

Astounding that there are people arguing that when Takayasu was crumpled on the ground following the Abi bout that it was because he was demoralized. That's ridiculous. He bashed his head against Abi's shoulder and got knocked out. End of story there.

Now after the bout, when he realized that he let another opportunity go by and was in no condition to fight even if he had had another go at it, yes, he was soul crushed. But that's not why he needed to be helped off the dohyo. 

[Reonito 1,335]

Over the past 5 years, 13 Makuuchi rikishi recorded 12+ wins on more than one occasion. All had at least one yusho, except Takayasu, for him this was the 5th such result, and (until now) Abi, who did it in his third.

[junsan 170]

9 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Its a big undercurrent for a lot of sumo fans to blame everything on mental struggles.

If you didn't see a man pyschologically at his nadir when Takayasu went down, that's fine too.....I guess. Those who've been in sport and seen similiar stuff know what they saw.

[Morty 1,480]

10 hours ago, Reonito said:

I always wonder how Shodai's last two years would have gone if he hadn't injured his ankle in his first ozeki basho. And Mitakeumi injured his shoulder early in the May basho, and of course chose to fight the full 15 days with one arm, potentially with ongoing effects on his fitness. But it's somehow easier to claim that these fighters, who after all rose all the way to sumo's second-highest rank and won four yusho between them, are not mentally tough enough

Add the effects of covid for both. I remember Shodai was described as suffering from long covid, not sure about Mitakeumi. But I know that for me, five months after having it I still have a heavy chest with persistent cough and pretty regular brain fog. Having a bad dose and after effects must be a nightmare for a professional athlete.

[Hakuryuho 334]

18 hours ago, themistyseas said:

I'm a fan of her updates of course, but it's a community where people are constantly looking to blame someone or something and someone has to be always right and someone is always wrong. Despite the fact that sumo always has a winner and a loser, there is often grey area in the narrative. Case in point: the feelings that Abi may or may not have had on the dohyo in the aftermath of the Takayasu win. There are even folks on this thread people replying (including to your comment here) and saying that's not payback because fans were cheated. 

I'm always amused by the glaring hypocrisy these people engage in.
On the one hand many of them support Terunofuji without hesitation, even after his egregious henka that led to Kotoshogiku losing his Ozeki rank which he never regained
and on the other hand they are foaming at their mouths when discussing Abi's henka.
In my opinion it's either both henka's are unacceptable or both are perfectly fine, even smart ways to secure an important win, there is no middle ground here.
 

[Seiyashi 4,071]

43 minutes ago, Hakuryuho said:

I'm always amused by the glaring hypocrisy these people engage in.
On the one hand many of them support Terunofuji without hesitation, even after his egregious henka that led to Kotoshogiku losing his Ozeki rank which he never regained
and on the other hand they are foaming at their mouths when discussing Abi's henka.
In my opinion it's either both henka's are unacceptable or both are perfectly fine, even smart ways to secure an important win, there is no middle ground here.
 

I think it's capable to be even more nuanced than that. I see henkas as smart decisions both tactically and strategically, but a cheap shot that either is, or shades very close to, sharp practice. It's therefore regrettable when contrasted against the image of an ideal rikishi as one who battles head on with heart and spirit, and who is not supposed to be hung up about wins - it's therefore not surprising that a henka is frowned upon since it's overwhelmingly about seeking an advantage.

There's also a dimension of time - many of the people obliquely referred to in your post aren't long time fans. That's not to say that you are only a fan if you come from the C4 days or longer, but in terms of perspective, they mightn't even have seen Terunofuji's henka, and all the media that they're exposed to are full of his comeback story only, so there's a certain element of bias there.

Also, in terms of time, it's possible to forgive a rikishi when they made a bad mistake in that moment but have obviously repented. Terunofuji has never pulled another henka since, to my knowledge. We don't know about Abi; I hope his reaction to Takayasu will scare him out of a henka for good, but we don't know given that being slightly wild is part of his style. IMO it's only really hypocritical or biased if, for instance, they have wildly different reactions to both Terunofuji and Abi immediately after they pull the henka.

Obviously it's impossible to express all the above through Twitter, which is why I don't use it very much.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Seiyashi

[dingo 1,160]

I do wonder what would be Abi's takeaway from the henka. Is it a) oh no my opponent got injured and I won't do it again or b) hmm, I got a crucial win and threw off my next opponent which helped me to get the yusho. Different approaches for different people. 

[Koorifuu 886]

Take my impression with a pinch of salt. I've been de facto married to a health professional for years but I'm not one myself...

...but Takayasu's convulsory response seemed more like neck trauma than brain injury, like a pinched nerve not unlike Takakeisho's shutdown from months ago (which was mentioned here a while ago). It still falls within the wide concussion umbrella, though.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

34 minutes ago, dingo said:

I do wonder what would be Abi's takeaway from the henka. Is it a) oh no my opponent got injured and I won't do it again or b) hmm, I got a crucial win and threw off my next opponent which helped me to get the yusho. Different approaches for different people. 

Why not both? He could have had b) in mind when he executed it, then looked at the aftermath and went a), while still gaining all the benefits of his initial plan b) because the deed had been done.

I certainly don't think he expected Takayasu's collapse/injury, though.

[Barutokai 62]

Takakeisho's Yusho-Doten is pretty amazing when you consider the cupping marks on his back.

[Jakusotsu 5,807]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

That's not to say that you are only a fan if you come from the C4 days or longer...

I guess I do, but what does it mean?

[Seiyashi 4,071]

14 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

I guess I do, but what does it mean?

I was trying to say that there's no measure of how "good" a fan you are just simply based on how long you've followed sumo. Missing events you didn't see because it happened before you became a fan should, at least, be charitably treated.

[dingo 1,160]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Why not both? He could have had b) in mind when he executed it, then looked at the aftermath and went a), while still gaining all the benefits of his initial plan b) because the deed had been done.

I certainly don't think he expected Takayasu's collapse/injury, though.

In my mind the two options lead to different future paths. a) would discourage henkas, while b) would encourage. 

[Octofuji 327]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

I certainly don't think he expected Takayasu's collapse/injury, though.

And presumably being on the receiving end of a henka is normally less likely to lead to injury.

I remember in May 2019 when Takakeisho had his ill-advised single day mid-basho re-entry, some were praising Aoiyama for kindly doing a henka to protect the Ozeki from himself.

[Jakusotsu 5,807]

34 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I was trying to say that there's no measure of how "good" a fan you are just simply based on how long you've followed sumo. Missing events you didn't see because it happened before you became a fan should, at least, be charitably treated.

I still don't get what "C4" ist supposed to mean...

[Seiyashi 4,071]

1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

I still don't get what "C4" ist supposed to mean...

Channel 4, which was the UK channel that first picked up and broadcast honbasho at or around the time of the Royal Albert Hall basho.

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

I still don't get what "C4" ist supposed to mean...

Channel 4. Broadcast sumo in the UK in the late 80s & early 90s.

I was there...

[warusawa 3]

Takayasu' injury seemed like a neck stinger to me. Glad he's okay. The injury just adds to the henka controversy. I am okay with henka; sumo is difficult enough not to use all the (legal) arrows in your quiver. 

[Akinomaki 39,771]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

o

already enough for a concussion

Others had a concussion after a similar drop. If Takayasu went for the 2nd bout already unfit to mount the dohyo after this one, the result is no surprise

[nelimw 80]

The henka discussion always comes down to ones philosophy about unwritten rules. There are many unwritten rules in sports that fans believe shouldn't be broken. I think people generally fall into two broad categories:

1. Unwritten rules should be respected. These rules are a part of the fiber, soul, and tradition of the sport - to break them is dishonorable.

17 hours ago, Rocks said:

i'd say get used to it, it angers/disppoints a lot of people. They want to see participants not avoiding competing which is basically what a henka is.

2. Unwritten rules are Unwritten. If you win within the rules of the sport then you did your job. A win is a win.

17 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

It's like getting mad at Tobizaru for sidestepping—you know he has the mobility advantage and the other guy has the power advantage, so why would you expect him to fight on the other guy's turf?

It goes without saying that sumo is steeped in tradition - would it be fair to say that sumo fans are more likely to be in the first category compared to fans of other sports? I think I lean more toward the second group but I understand the first. I don't see a henka as "avoiding competing" because the move is a legal part of the competition. It's just not competing the way others think you should. 

[Yamanashi 3,724]

4 hours ago, Hakuryuho said:

In my opinion it's either both henka's are unacceptable or both are perfectly fine, even smart ways to secure an important win, there is no middle ground here.

Both henka's were unacceptable, but since no shimpan held up a hand so they could agree to bitch-slap the guilty party, it is de jure acceptable.

[nagora 88]

Henka are disappointing. It's as simple as that. They're not skilful and they're not entertaining in some other way, so the crowd generally is bored and fans of the loser are annoyed, only the supporters of the winner are happy (and not even all of them). So they leave at best a feeling of anti-climax and at worse an ill-defined feeling of cheating.

As long as they are enforcing the "touch the ground" rule on the tachiai most of the time then it will be effective. If you go back to Chiyonofuji's day you'll see plenty of bouts where they basically start by waving at the floor and are upright from the off; there's no pretence of actually touching down.

[Wakawakawaka 136]

What a sour ending to the basho...

I was rooting for Takayasu because he was the most dominant rikishi for most of the tournament and of course wanted to see him finally win a yusho. Takakeisho's performance grew on me as the basho went on as her showed a lot of fighting spirit, and crucially in contrast to recently, IIRC almost all of his wins were moving forward instead of slapdowns. Abi's performance didn't look especially strong, he looked like his normal Komusubi self, just fighting an M9 schedule, of course he's going to rack up a lot of wins just like the last 2 tournaments he was in this neighborhood on the banzuke. 

In all the talk of the void at the top in terms of dominant Yokozuna and Ozeki, I'm thankful that IMO this has not tainted the yusho. Again IMO all of the yusho winners in 2021 and 2022 earned it with exceptionally strong performances, I don't feel the same way about Abi. Then we get to the playoff and he henka's Takayasu (there's a time for everything, this is not the time) > Takayasu injured, now I have to root for Abi against Takakeisho just so poor Takayasu doesn't have to mount the dohyo again and risk further injury. Then Abi has the audacity to 'deny' his 'henka' showing he knows he did something 'wrong'. >:(

2023 for Abi. January = Kyujo, March = Yusho, May = Kyujo, July = Yusho, September = Kyujo, November = Yusho ;)

Edited November 28, 2022 by Wakawakawaka