Basho Talk Haru 2018 (SPOILERS)

[lackmaker 438]

14 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

It was - indeed. One of the best henka performances of the last years in makuuchi. No question about this. And it is a legal technique, even for a yokozuna.

But on the other hand it was a match between an ozeki (from who you expect to contest somehow for the yusho) and the winner of the last basho in the rank of a sekiwake, with both still in the possible yusho race. The decision to do pull a henka in such a bout lacks the spirit of a fighter and questions his hinkaku for higher merits (ok, at least for me).

Well executed indeed.

The complaint against a henka on much lower ranked opponents is that is it really necessary. But then when there is more equality it's robbing us of a proper contest. I get that some people will never like the tactic. But while it's allowed then anyone should be prepared as it's part of the sumo repertoire.

[XiaoTan 93]

5 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

He was nowhere near to putting both fists to the ground. The head shimpan should have called it back.

I’m not a fan of henkas, but when the other rikishi effectively runs out of the ring before being able to check himself than I tend to make an exception - because it’s sumo and not bullfighting. But that’s just me.

[ryafuji 815]

If it was a marginal case, then sure, let it go. But I don't think Goeido even made any movement to put his left fist down. This isn't the 1970s.

[Dapeng 235]

39 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

It was - indeed. One of the best henka performances of the last years in makuuchi. No question about this. And it is a legal technique, even for a yokozuna.

Goueido, although one rank higher, can't beat Tochinoshin in a straight forward bout and he did not want to lose in his hometown, that's why he selected to henka.

[mikawa 1,794]

Guess that's one way to keep Tochinoshin off your belt, but it's not gonna get Goeido any fans though

[XiaoTan 93]

6 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

If it was a marginal case, then sure, let it go. But I don't think Goeido even made any movement to put his left fist down. This isn't the 1970s.

I agree - probably should have been matta. I just don’t see how you blame someone for sidestepping if the opponent blindly rushes in.

[Dapeng 235]

47 minutes ago, XiaoTan said:

I just don’t see how you blame someone for sidestepping if the opponent blindly rushes in.

That's why henka, although despised by many, remains to be a legal move.

[WAKATAKE 2,671]

It certainly didn’t please the crowd, even if he is the hometown favorite 

[ALAKTORN 346]

Gōeidō disgusts me.

[Washuyama 641]

1 hour ago, Dapeng said:

Goueido, although one rank higher, can't beat Tochinoshin in a straight forward bout and he did not want to lose in his hometown, that's why he selected to henka.

This isn't the first time Goeido has henka'd Tochinoshin in Osaka.  He also did it to him in March 2016.

[Asashosakari 19,594]

2 hours ago, ryafuji said:

16 hours ago, Kuroyama said:

I wonder... Do they have the same video replay available for the lower divisions as they do for sekitori bouts? I had thought they were dependent on NHK for the camera angles.

No they don't - it's not available for the lower divisions. But even if they did, I wonder if they would use it that much. I don't know that it negates Asashosakari's point that they are more likely to tell them to have another go than spend several minutes analyzing bouts between low rankers.

Yeah, I would guess it's just the one camera angle from the stationary camera that they used to use for their in-house webfeed. (I assume that camera still exists for the NSK's own purposes even with Abema doing their fuller coverage now, but maybe I'm wrong about that.) There must be something, in any case, considering they do kimarite corrections with some frequency in the lower divisions and I can't imagine they do that without rewatching the finishes.

[Rocks 1,809]

@Kintamayama should have called today's video "Of Henkas and hair-pulls..." Awful display today. If I had bought a ticket today I would have been pissed. Only really good matches were Ichinojo/Kaisei and Mitakeumi/Shohozan.

Kaisei nearly pushed the mountain over at the tachai but he was just a little short and the mountain came crashing back down on him. He held it up nobly for as long as he could. I'm still trying to figure out how Hidenoumi ever got to sekitori level. Is there a single technique he can finish properly?

I  hate henkas, especially from rookies and sanyaku. As far as Goeido's henka it was bad. But by the same token it was so blatant Tochinoshin should have been able to recover so it's hard to feel sorry for him. I think he is starting to realize guys might fear him now and feel the need to henka, etc. If he is going to stay at that level he needs to learn to deal with it.

 

I forgot Kakuryu. He looked good today, showed some strength. But I would not advise him to use the same strategy against Ichinojo tomorrow.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Rocks

[Asashosakari 19,594]

16 minutes ago, Rocks said:

@Kintamayama should have called today's video "Of Henkas and hair-pulls..." Awful display today. If I had bought a ticket today I would have been pissed. Only really good matches were Ichinojo/Kaisei and Mitakeumi/Shohozan.

No love for Kotoshogiku-Takarafuji? I thought that was an excellent bout.

[Rocks 1,809]

4 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

No love for Kotoshogiku-Takarafuji? I thought that was an excellent bout.

That was pretty good but it always annoys me a bit when they don't finish properly. Giku had that well in hand and petered out.

[Chankomafuji 51]

I don't see any drama about the henkas. The crowd was very obviously pleased with Ishiura's win. The lad,who is  short and light, is almost always a low-maegashira, trying not to fall to juryo and, if possible, climb up the banzuke. I would prefer to have Ishiura at M5 fighting the yokozuna at day 10 instead of, well, Chiyomaru for example. I know he would win every beauty contest but in sumo having a rikishi who is light, fast and more or less predictable to do a henka will be more interesting to watch. 
About Goeido. Did anyone of you expect him to do a henka? No. He is not a "henka" rikishi. And he still executed it well and surprised everyone. Is not that what you want? I don't remember the last time I saw Goeido doing a henka, maybe my memory is short.  Before the basho he explained his disappointment for not being in the yusho race and he wants to please his fans now in Osaka. Let's think about this. About Goeido's fans. If you were there, cheering for an 6-3 Goeido, about to have very, very tough fight against a career-top shape Tochinoshin, would you not be satisfied if your favourite rikishi won even with a henka? The thought of having him 6-4 would scare them more than a 7-3 after a henka, don't you think?
The Japanese society seems to understand these things. 

I am sure that it is not the henka in general what bothers most people here. It is the fact that it was used against a 7-2 Tochinoshin. It is the hunger from fans to see a new star, a new hero, why not a new ozeki. Ask yourself this question now - what if the henka was used against Kakuryu (of course, we still have 5 more days, Goeido will too face Kakuryu)? Would we have the same reaction? I don't think so.  Quite the opposite,  "the yusho race is wide open", we would see. That is what I see in every stream so far this basho. In mbovo's stream, in various youtube streams,  the moment Kakuryu is to go out to fight, people pray not the other rikishi to win, but Kakuryu to lose. Why? I don't know. I do not see any reason Kakuryu not to deserve a yusho. Quite the opposite. Many here already agreed that there might have been pressure on him after Hakuho and Kisenosato are kyujo. You too know how Kakuryu performed on the grip test shortly before the basho. Did he not have a reason to pull out?  
This is how I see things.

[maorencze 144]

Legal or not, that henka looked like confession of inferiority. But that's understandable, Goeido being Goeido.

[Yatagarasu 352]

Goeido....I.... <sigh>  just... ugh.  BUT, Tochinoshin should also have known better than to charge straight in - Goeido is a notorious henka artist when he lacks bottle or needs a cheap kachikoshi.  I felt robbed as a spectator.

 

 

[Kintamayama 45,484]

27 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

 About Goeido's fans. If you were there, cheering for an 6-3 Goeido, about to have very, very tough fight against a career-top shape Tochinoshin, would you not be satisfied if your favourite rikishi won even with a henka? The thought of having him 6-4 would scare them more than a 7-3 after a henka, don't you think?
The Japanese society seems to understand these things. 
 

Some of the fans were visibly NOT pleased with Goueidou's henka. There was even some booing.

[Yatagarasu 352]

4 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Some of the fans were visibly NOT pleased with Goueidou's henka. There was even some booing.

How many kensho did he get incidentally? 

[Chankomafuji 51]

11 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Some of the fans were visibly NOT pleased with Goueidou's henka. There was even some booing.

Absolutely. I said that the crowd was pleased with Ishiura's win, the first henka win. But if Goeido was to keep any, even if insignificant chance to stay in the yusho race, he did exactly what he had to - to win. To WIN at the first place. 

[Kintamayama 45,484]

11 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

How many kensho did he get incidentally? 

I don't know, but over 20 for sure. I heard he is donating it to the blind.

[Kintamayama 45,484]

2 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

Absolutely. I said that the crowd was pleased with Ishiura's win, the first henka win. But if Goeido was to keep any, even if insignificant chance to stay in the yusho race, he did exactly what he had to - to win. To WIN at the first place. 

I have to agree with that. Still, I found myself throwing my rubber duck at the computer screen.

[Akinomaki 40,703]

34 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

How many kensho did he get incidentally? 

18, if Nikkan can be trusted http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/37613-kensho-haru-2018/?do=findComment&comment=359745

Edited March 20, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Benevolance 2,508]

14 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Weird kesho-mawashi by Terunofuji. Looks like totally black satin without any decoration at all.

It's not black, it's 50 shades of grey. 

7 hours ago, Godaiko said:

"I think that Goeido guy is my enemy."

Welcome to the fan club, kid. 

[Kuroyama 715]

5 hours ago, ryafuji said:

No they don't - it's not available for the lower divisions. But even if they did, I wonder if they would use it that much. I don't know that it negates Asashosakari's point that they are more likely to tell them to have another go than spend several minutes analyzing bouts between low rankers.

I don't know about "negating" anything, but with less information on which to base a very close call we might expect more torinaoshi for that reason alone.