Basho Talk - Nagoya Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Kintamayama 44,275]

I’d like to mention that if it weren’t for a henka loss Kisenosato might’ve been in a playoff, btw…

And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bus, but reality just doesn't work that way.. :-)

I was simply bringing it up as everyone seems to write him off as having choked or not being good enough, but… in actual sumō he pretty much should’ve been in a playoff. So what gives?

Nothing gives. I was just saying that Kisenosato is synonymous to the word "if". I meant no malice. The "if" word brings out the worst in me. I apologize if I offended you in any way. I thought the big fat smiley at the end would somehow explain that I was kidding.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,275]

And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bus, but reality just doesn't work that way.. :-)

As a Star Trek Fan, I appreciate this quote on MANY levels.

It's also been a Greek saying since before Star Trek existed. Usually the annoying comeback of a strict middle-aged woman.

It's a watered down Hebrew version as well. The original was "If my grandmother had a penis she would be my grandfather."

[Jakusotsu 5,757]

It's a watered down Hebrew version as well. The original was "If my grandmother had a penis she would be my grandfather."

Hehe. We say that, too, around here, along with "If the dog didn't take a dump he would have caught the hare."

[dingo 1,133]

I was simply bringing it up as everyone seems to write him off as having choked or not being good enough, but… in actual sumō he pretty much should’ve been in a playoff. So what gives?

How does that Logically occure? A playoff would require that Harumafuji lose in a situation he has historically not lost in. When he is ahead of Hakuho and meeting him on the last day, he has historically won. If Kisenosato was able to force a playoff, he would have one one more than he did. That he was not in a playoff shows that he was not able to in Actual Sumo and not make shit up that sounds truthy Sumo Talk Sumo.

I think what Alaktorn meant was that without the henka, i.e. in "real" sumo Kisenosato would've been level with Harumafuji at the end of the basho and there would've been a playoff. It's really quite unfortunate for Kisenosato that a henka spoiled an otherwise good basho for him. I do feel for him cause a henka is very difficult to counter especially if you don't expect it and at this level every win counts - as we saw.

But yeah, that's a lot of ifs and would'ves and its all bygones by now. Kisenosato will simply have to swallow any bitter feelings and step up next basho (and take revenge on Shohozan ;) )

[ronnie 221]

Kaio also would have been a Yokozuna today due to the lesser standards.

Kaio wouldn't have had 5 yusho today. We have Hakuho.

Yeah, he only had to deal with that "weakling" Asashoryu LOL

In the last 2 basho of 2004 Kaio scored 13-2Y and 12-3J.

Luckily for him it didn't result in promotion.

[kuroimori 1,634]

I’d like to mention that if it weren’t for a henka loss Kisenosato might’ve been in a playoff, btw…

And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bus, but reality just doesn't work that way.. :-)

I was simply bringing it up as everyone seems to write him off as having choked or not being good enough, but… in actual sumō he pretty much should’ve been in a playoff. So what gives?

Nothing gives. I was just saying that Kisenosato is synonymous to the word "if". I meant no malice. The "if" word brings out the worst in me. I apologize if I offended you in any way. I thought the big fat smiley at the end would somehow explain that I was kidding.

nifty! ;-)

[rhyen 1,801]

In the last 2 basho of 2004 Kaio scored 13-2Y and 12-3J.

Luckily for him it didn't result in promotion.

Kaio got it the wrong way around, he should have been posting 12-3 Js before the big 13-2 Y.

Japanese are pretty obsessive when it comes to numbers and alphabets.

Edit: was wondering if there is a Kisenosato tsunatori run thread in the other ozumo forum and we can move this debate there. Seems likely to be a recurring topic for the next few bashos.

Edited July 26, 2016 by rhyen

[Big Time 1]

Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but when I see Kisenosato on the Dohyo I feel like his heart isn't truly in it.

When Harumafuji beat Hakuho on the final day, you could absolutely see he gave the bout everything he had and it was inspiring to see. Makes me want to cheer for Harumafuji everytime I see him, he's got fighting spirit. When I see Kisenosato fight I just don't feel the same energy, he's statistically very good but it feels like he is lacking heart. Is that just me?

[K. Sear 27]

Kisenosato will simply have to swallow any bitter feelings and step up next basho (and take revenge on Shohozan ;) )

Yeah, I hope to see Kisenosato get some revenge next basho, perhaps a nice kachiage to stun Shohozan. It might do Kise some good to develop more of a mean streak to strike some fear into his opponents and make them think twice about pulling something on him. Hakuho has a huge mean streak and it probably helps keep his opponents in line.

[Rocks 1,805]

Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but when I see Kisenosato on the Dohyo I feel like his heart isn't truly in it.

When Harumafuji beat Hakuho on the final day, you could absolutely see he gave the bout everything he had and it was inspiring to see. Makes me want to cheer for Harumafuji everytime I see him, he's got fighting spirit. When I see Kisenosato fight I just don't feel the same energy, he's statistically very good but it feels like he is lacking heart. Is that just me?

This is something I have seen on here along with other criticism of Kisenosato. I don't get it. He is your traditional Japanese rikishi, stoic and accepting. The Mongolians get fired up as it's their style but I don't think it factors very much into outcome. Being fired up is not going to give you many wins against an obviously more talented opponent. Although it makes for much more entertaining sumo.

Kisenosato is a great rikishi as evidenced by his winning record against almost everybody. There is a lot of talk about him against the Mongolian Yokozunas and how he pales in comparison. But they fail to take into account he has won over 40% of his bouts with Harumafuji and has dominated Kakuryu by over 60% including being 6-5 against him SINCE he became Yokozuna. He has been slaughtered by Hakuho but who hasn't been?

Kisenosato's main weakness is he seems to have no ability or any interest in throwing his opponent. He relies almost exclusively on his height and size to overbear an opponent and push out. That has got him very far but allowing your opponent to have no fear of certain techniques when going against you is giving away a lot even if you know there a few out there that can throw you. He fears Hakuho and is dominated by him because he knows Hakuho can throw him. Kisenosato would have been a Yokozuna long ago if he had and used throwing techniques.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Rocks

[CT3* 331]

And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bus, but reality just doesn't work that way.. :-)

As a Star Trek Fan, I appreciate this quote on MANY levels.

It's also been a Greek saying since before Star Trek existed. Usually the annoying comeback of a strict middle-aged woman.

It's a watered down Hebrew version as well. The original was "If my grandmother had a penis she would be my grandfather."

That's what we say in the US, "if Grandma had balls, she'd be Grandpa".

[WAKATAKE 2,624]

Following earlier conversation, we can say yeah, Kise got his basho spoiled by the Shohozan henka but at the same time, he ALSO lost to Tochiozan within the first week of the basho, and if he had BEATEN Harfmafuji then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. That match showed who was the Yokozuna, and that's why will remain the Ozeki for at least one more basho. The way this stuff goes can almost be compared to college football. You WIN out, you're in the playoff or the championship game. You lose, you go home. Kise has shown time and time again that even when he's in the lead, he chokes because he can't beat the Yokozuna, who are the GRAND CHAMPIONS. My college wrestling coach used to say, "To be an All-American you need to BEAT an All-American. To be a national champion you need to BEAT a national champion." Same thing applies to Kise. He's not a Yokozuna because he can't beat all of them in a necessary enough combination to win the yusho.

[bettega 423]

I think I could accept (who am I to "accept" anything) Kisenosato as Yokozuna if Kakuryu wasn't already one. Four Yokozuna is too much for now... Kisenosato lost the train when "let" kakuryu become Yokozuna before him.

[WAKATAKE 2,624]

The tsuna is obviously still alive since the YDC has said their condition is now "yusho" without specifying wins.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1684598.html

[bettega 423]

The next YDC condition (for Kysuhu) will be "Kise, we'll take Hakuho, Haru and any other three rikishi that you choose and put them in a locked room for 15 days - now you'll please win a Yusho?"

[Senkoho 552]

I can't imagine a 13-2D not granting the promotion for Kise.

[dingo 1,133]

The next YDC condition (for Kysuhu) will be "Kise, we'll take Hakuho, Haru and any other three rikishi that you choose and put them in a locked room for 15 days - now you'll please win a Yusho?"

If I can be cynical for a moment - he would still mess it up ;)

I wonder at what point does Kisenosato's tsunatori turn into a farce. If it isn't one already...

[Gurowake 3,886]

I can't imagine a 13-2D not granting the promotion for Kise.

I can't imagine anyone getting promotion without winning a Yusho.

[Atenzan 1,074]

From an SML post that apparently has now disappeared into the 404 abyss, I remember the rough criteria for promotion to yokozuna post-Futahaguro should be 2 consecutive of the following:

15-0 or

14-1 or

Yusho-doten with at least 13 wins or

Yusho with 12 or more wins

And

At least 1 yusho.

Obviously the criteria differ for an extended tsuna run, and are not set in stone anyway, but please note that Kisenosato has never in his makuuchi career fulfilled for a single basho either of the above criteria. It's therefore hard for me to consider his tsuna run strong, however many wins he's putting up, and however consistently he's doing it.

Edit: spelling

Edited July 26, 2016 by McBugger

[RabidJohn 1,644]

I'm beginning to feel a bit sorry for Kise - it's not fair to put that much pressure on someone who's good, but not quite good enough. I can't see that the enormous expectation helps him in any way.

That said, though, Sumo is full of surprises - every basho without fail. Hakuho going from 14-1 and 15-0 to his worst record for years was one. Takanoiwa was another.

So maybe Kise will surprise us one day, but even if he doesn't, I don't doubt he'll be doing the best he can.

[Benevolance 2,472]

I feel sorry for Endo; all those sponsors and he never collects the kensho. :-/

[hamcornheinz 839]

Tired of all this "kisenosato chokes" thing. When harumafuji loses to a rank and file, we all accept it because his style is wild and risky. Kisenosato's style is too yorikiri focused so he tends to lean forward too much looking for grips, and falls down. No choking involved, it's just his sumo.

[Benevolance 2,472]

When harumafuji loses to a rank and file,

Though, to be fair, both the sumo forum and the YDC were critical of any Harumafuji loss post-yokozuna promotion for about a year...

[SumpaX 23]

Harumafuji is my favorite Yokozuna and he more than deserved this win so I am very glad for him. But he is long past his days of winning Yusho back to back. He will not win in Sept.

Isn't that a bit harsh? Sure he won 3 yushos with 28, and that without a doubt was his prime. But recently it feels like the chains came of that kept him from winning, he still has the speed and agility. This basho his sumo was also very powerful compared to his others in the past. I don't see him slowing down, quite the opposite. He may very well win in September ...

[Rocks 1,805]

Harumafuji is my favorite Yokozuna and he more than deserved this win so I am very glad for him. But he is long past his days of winning Yusho back to back. He will not win in Sept.

Isn't that a bit harsh? Sure he won 3 yushos with 28, and that without a doubt was his prime. But recently it feels like the chains came of that kept him from winning, he still has the speed and agility. This basho his sumo was also very powerful compared to his others in the past. I don't see him slowing down, quite the opposite. He may very well win in September ...

I don't think so. This was a great win for him but one look at his face at the end of the Hakuho bout and you saw it took everything out of him to get it done. Some part of him is always wrapped now. He's got what it takes but it's not his to wield whenever he wants anymore. I think he's enjoying his life as a yokozuna a bit too much and he'll do that even more after a Yusho win, I don't think he'll get more than 11 wins in Sept and that isn't going to get it done.