Basho Talk - Nagoya Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Benihana 1,901]

Better be remembered as great Ozeki with consistent numbers of wins without a yusho, than as a yokozuna who can't live up to the expectations. But like others said, it's just a mental thing. He is a classic case of the flesh is willing, but the spirit is weak.

Speaking of Ozekis...i hope Goeido finally gets demoted next basho, i won't shed a tear for Terunofuji either and i'm not sure about Kotoshogiku any more. There are other guys out there, who show better potential and just need some more bashos to gain experience or who just have bad luck with injuries.

Now to something completely different: I hoped that Mitakeumi wouldn't fare worse than 5-10 and he landed right on spot. Great basho for someone who is so young an inexperenced. Let's see how he does over the next year. If he stays fit...

Wakanohana III would have been remembered that way, but he is considered a sub-par Yokozuna.

Goeido is firmly back in his Ozekiwake routine. Kotoshogiku may yet decide to hang it up this year. I would like to believe Terunofuji is the 72nd (73rd?) Yokozuna, but ever since that 12-3 D last year, he hasn't been what most want him to be.

(IMO) Ichinojo, Kotoyuki, Shodai, and Mitakeumi and have the YOUTH to make it to Ozeki. Will there skill set match??????

Then for the flying spaghetti monsters's sake "the tragic Ozeki". No yusho, but outstanding jun-yusho streaks. He sure won't be forgotten that fast.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Better be remembered as great Ozeki with consistent numbers of wins without a yusho, than as a yokozuna who can't live up to the expectations.

I strongly disagree with that, and I'm honestly not sure how this myopic mindset ever gained traction in sumo fandom. What compels people to throw out everything that a yokozuna did before his promotion? Wakanohana III is a prime example - as far as I'm concerned he was simply an excellent rikishi who won a very respectable number of championships with five, deservedly earned promotion to yokozuna as befits a rikishi with that many titles, and then had the misfortune that his body gave out on him shortly after. Most people only seem happy if they get to harp on about that last year and a half, though.

No athlete actually wants to be remembered as the best-ever second-stringer. They'll take it and make the best of it if that's all they can get, but people really need to stop kidding themselves that "great ozeki" is a career goal that rikishi of that quality level have in mind when they're in their prime.

[Kishinoyama 582]

Speaking of Ozekis...i hope Goeido finally gets demoted next basho, i won't shed a tear for Terunofuji either and i'm not sure about Kotoshogiku any more. There are other guys out there, who show better potential and just need some more bashos to gain experience or who just have bad luck with injuries.

... I would like to believe Terunofuji is the 72nd (73rd?) Yokozuna, but ever since that 12-3 D last year, he hasn't been what most want him to be.

That injured knee has something to do with that. I still don't think it has completely healed and who knows if it ever will......

Edited July 25, 2016 by Kishinoyama

[Washuyama 635]

Who is considered the greater rikishi, Wakanohana III or Kaio? I see it as one has his picture on permanent display in the Sumo Museum and one doesn't.

[Jyuunomori 226]

I personally see Kaio as a superior rikishi, but that is because I am a fanboy of his. I would say Kisenosato is better than Wakanohana too. But Kisenosato will never win a Yusho and be a Yokozuna. What I am going to say is that Kise is out of luck to be paired into the generation which has two of the greatest Yokozunas of all time. And one of the Yokozuna's is unfortunate to be paired with the other abnormal monster. If Hakuho would not be here Harumafuji would have so many Yusho right about now.

But yeah, I do not get where the ''Better be remembered as Great Ozeki than Weak Yokozuna.'' thing comes from either. It is a pretty silly statement. So I will make a sillier one right here:

''All Yokozuna who doesn't get FOUR back-2-back 15-0 Yusho's are all weak Yokozuna and are garbage.''

[robnplunder 974]

No athlete actually wants to be remembered as the best-ever second-stringer. They'll take it and make the best of it if that's all they can get, but people really need to stop kidding themselves that "great ozeki" is a career goal that rikishi of that quality level have in mind when they're in their prime.

Agreed. People are going to know Kise as an Ozeki who wasn't good enough to be a 'zuna or win an Yusho.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Reminds me of the KaioU days. Same text except for the no-yusho part. Choker, unlucky, strong yokozunas not letting him get the tsuna, etc.. etc..

Yes, there was the endless injuries factor as opposed to Kisenosato's Kyokutenhou-ness, but still, I remember the rhetoric.

At the time, all of us (fan-boys excluded) knew U would never make it. We just knew. I have the same feeling today about Kise, just like I KNOW Shoudai is a future Ozeki.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Amazes me that people can be so certain Kisenosato will 'never win a yusho'. As currently the second or third strongest rikishi in terms of numbers, he is one of the very few who actually is capable of it. I hope he wins one even more now so we can then hear how it was 'just luck' or so-and-so 'was injured' or that 'the fix was in'.

Kise has been ozeki at the same time as very strong yokozunae and has only very recently attained a level capable of challenging them: being consistently within one win of the yusho line. Why not wait and see what happens instead of condemning him to failure? 13-2, 13-2, 12-3 tells me he is not far from the big prize.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Pandaazuma

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Since were on the HOT topic of Kisenosato, may i offer a respite by posing this question to all who care:

Does anyone think Kakuryu will get another Yusho before he hangs it up? I have a bad habit of comparing him to Onokuni, and for the Kakuryu fans out there I do apologize. Its just hard not to see him as "3rd banana" (or even 4th if what some say of Kisenosato is to be taken literally)

AND: A really big MAHALO to Moti for having the shortest retirement in history, we are ALL lucky to have your continuing services. Should you ever find yourself in Hawaii (Oahu), let me know :-D That offer also goes to Jason (if he is on these forums) and John Gunning. Actually, its an offer too EVERYONE.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Amazes me that people can be so certain Kisenosato will 'never win a yusho'. As currently the second or third strongest rikishi in terms of numbers, he is one of the very few who actually is capable of it. I hope he wins one even more now so we can then hear how it was 'just luck' or so-and-so 'was injured' or that 'the fix was in'.

I am one of those. It's just not gonna happen. I think the last basho will be his turning (breaking) point . It's not that I don't like him-he's worthy as James, so all we can do is sit back and wait and see. As for "just luck" others "injured" and "the fix", that has been said of every single new Yokozuna promotion, including Hakuhou.

[robnplunder 974]

I think Kise's chance at Yusho is largely dependent on what happens to the 3 'zunas. If one or two gets injured and retire before Kise, he will have a good chance at Yusho. Otherwise, I don't think Kise is good enough to get an Yusho with the 3 'zunas around.

Edited July 25, 2016 by robnplunder

[Irakusamaru 77]

Takarafuji wasn't taking any risks with getting the sanyaku slot.

Shortly before his match, the announcers mentioned Takarafuji was dedicating this basho to his senpai, Aminishiki.

I hope Aminishiki saw the henka and cried a single tear.

[rhyen 1,809]

Reminds me of the KaioU days. Same text except for the no-yusho part. Choker, unlucky, strong yokozunas not letting him get the tsuna, etc.. etc..

Yes, there was the endless injuries factor as opposed to Kisenosato's Kyokutenhou-ness, but still, I remember the rhetoric.

At the time, all of us (fan-boys excluded) knew U would never make it. We just knew. I have the same feeling today about Kise, just like I KNOW Shoudai is a future Ozeki.

What does your intuition tell you about Terunofuji?

[Jyuunomori 226]

I agree with Kintamayama on Kisenosato. He will never be a Yokozuna and Shodai will atleast become an Ozeki withing a year.

Terunofuji on other hand looked like a Yokozuna before his injury. People even threw zabutons when he lost few bouts before he was injured. However I am a pessimist by nature and I don't think Terunofuji will ever be the same again. His injury free prime is past him. Just like Hakuho's prime (2010) has been past him for over half decade. But since it is Hakuho him not being in his prime doesn't really mean much.

However, men tell tales of unwordly usurper who is going to make his Ozeki run really soon. Gagamaru is coming.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Reminds me of the KaioU days. Same text except for the no-yusho part. Choker, unlucky, strong yokozunas not letting him get the tsuna, etc.. etc..

Yes, there was the endless injuries factor as opposed to Kisenosato's Kyokutenhou-ness, but still, I remember the rhetoric.

At the time, all of us (fan-boys excluded) knew U would never make it. We just knew. I have the same feeling today about Kise, just like I KNOW Shoudai is a future Ozeki.

What does your intuition tell you about Terunofuji?

You don't need to be clairvoyant to understand that it all depends on his health. A healthy Terunofuji is Yokozuna material, I think.

[rzombie1988 157]

I agree with Kintamayama on Kisenosato. He will never be a Yokozuna and Shodai will atleast become an Ozeki withing a year.

Terunofuji on other hand looked like a Yokozuna before his injury. People even threw zabutons when he lost few bouts before he was injured. However I am a pessimist by nature and I don't think Terunofuji will ever be the same again. His injury free prime is past him. Just like Hakuho's prime (2010) has been past him for over half decade. But since it is Hakuho him not being in his prime doesn't really mean much.

However, men tell tales of unwordly usurper who is going to make his Ozeki run really soon. Gagamaru is coming.

Gaga's long-standing feud against gravity isn't a winning one unfortunately.

[Gospodin 187]

Reminds me of the KaioU days. Same text except for the no-yusho part. Choker, unlucky, strong yokozunas not letting him get the tsuna, etc.. etc..

Yes, there was the endless injuries factor as opposed to Kisenosato's Kyokutenhou-ness, but still, I remember the rhetoric.

At the time, all of us (fan-boys excluded) knew U would never make it. We just knew. I have the same feeling today about Kise, just like I KNOW Shoudai is a future Ozeki.

So even in 2001, when he won two bashos, most people did not expect him to become yokozuna someday ?

[CT3* 331]

When Terunofuji was healthy and on form, I was pretty certain that he would become Yokozuna. And I felt the exact same way about Baruto...

[Akinomaki 39,805]

Reminds me of the KaioU days. Same text except for the no-yusho part. Choker, unlucky, strong yokozunas not letting him get the tsuna, etc.. etc..

Yes, there was the endless injuries factor as opposed to Kisenosato's Kyokutenhou-ness, but still, I remember the rhetoric.

At the time, all of us (fan-boys excluded) knew U would never make it. We just knew. I have the same feeling today about Kise, just like I KNOW Shoudai is a future Ozeki.

So even in 2001, when he won two bashos, most people did not expect him to become yokozuna someday ?

Back then no one would have expected the Japanese yokozuna drought to last so long that the standards for Japanese are now low enough that Kaio would be promoted if he'd produce his 2004 results now: 13-2J,10-5,11-4, 13-2Y, 12-3J

- and more could not be expected from him.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

So even in 2001, when he won two bashos, most people did not expect him to become yokozuna someday ?

Kinta is exaggerating a bit, perhaps because of some legendary debates with Kaio supporters in the early days of the forum. ;-) But I think he's talking more about ~2003 onward, not the time immediately after Kaio finally made it to ozeki (when many people certainly thought he'd now be waltzing straight through to the tsuna).

Back then no one would have expected the Japanese yokozuna drought to last so long that the standards for Japanese are now low enough that Kaio would be promoted if he'd produce his 2004 results now: 13-2J,10-5,11-4, 13-2Y, 12-3J

- and more could not be expected from him.

I don't think that would have been enough even by Kisenosato-style standards. Supporting tournaments too weak, and the 12-3 in the last basho would have been worthless because the yusho race was over after Day 14. (And for Kaio it was virtually over even earlier, as he was trailing by two wins since Day 12.) Edited July 25, 2016 by Asashosakari

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

Well I am very happy for Harumafuji, he seems to be in the shadows a lot to Hakuho, and often is the spoiler to Kise's quest for that tsuna. I'm really hoping that he will get to join the 10 yusho club before he retires, heck even get 11 so he's in the top 10!

Hakuho is obviously injured, anybody who's paid close attention can tell that he's got something but he's very good at not making it obvious to the casual fan or the people in the stands. He has to be careful though, at some point people are going to figure him out more, and he's not getting any younger. And the younger rikishi that are coming up will start beating him, though he's beating them right now. And when that starts happening, I think then he will look at hanging it up.

Kise, oh Kise. Luck has never been on your side, and somehow you can never manage to beat ALL the yokozuna in the basho. It's always losing to one or two yokozuna that you can't win. Not choking when you have the lead would help also. Hopefully we have a Japanese yokozuna someday, and hopefully you will finally get that yusho.

Terunofuji, always got to bring the suspense to the last day. There's going to come a point where he's not going to be so lucky and will find himself in the lower sanyaku. If I were him I would seriously consider taking a basho off to heal.

Goeido, what can I say? That 12-3 basho seems like a distant memory now. With Kotoshogiku having dropped out early we're going to have two kadoban ozeki, when was the last time that happened?

Kaisei fought hard but really he was able to get to 7 wins because he got two freebies against a yokozuna and an ozeki. He may have been only 5-10 if he didn't get those. Here's to hoping he can have a decent basho in Aki.

Tochinoshin, come back strong and keep us entertained!

I believe that Takarafuji is going to join Takayasu for the sekiwake slots next basho, and I believe that it will mark the third consecutive basho where both sekiwake are debuts.

Kotoyuki I think seriously needs to bring the bark back. He got shanked by the Kyokai because of it.

I'm going to love to see how Shodai does next basho, this kid is going to be something in the future, just needs to work on his tachi-ai a bit and not be so much a defensive wrestler.

Mitakeumi, keep working hard and learn, you're going to get better the more experience you get, I can feel it!

Congrats to Yoshikaze and Takanoiwa for getting those sansho and kinboshi (Yoshikaze)!

Endo, should take time off to heal.

Ichinojo, finishing with a 9-6 at mid-maegashira doesn't look promising when he's up in the joi next basho.

I really want to see Ura in makuuchi next basho, but I think we're going to see him get there in Kyushu!

[Dapeng 232]

Well I am very happy for Harumafuji, he seems to be in the shadows a lot to Hakuho, and often is the spoiler to Kise's quest for that tsuna. I'm really hoping that he will get to join the 10 yusho club before he retires, heck even get 11 so he's in the top 10!

Hakuho is obviously injured, anybody who's paid close attention can tell that he's got something but he's very good at not making it obvious to the casual fan or the people in the stands. He has to be careful though, at some point people are going to figure him out more, and he's not getting any younger. And the younger rikishi that are coming up will start beating him, though he's beating them right now. And when that starts happening, I think then he will look at hanging it up.

Kise, oh Kise. Luck has never been on your side, and somehow you can never manage to beat ALL the yokozuna in the basho. It's always losing to one or two yokozuna that you can't win. Not choking when you have the lead would help also. Hopefully we have a Japanese yokozuna someday, and hopefully you will finally get that yusho.

Terunofuji, always got to bring the suspense to the last day. There's going to come a point where he's not going to be so lucky and will find himself in the lower sanyaku. If I were him I would seriously consider taking a basho off to heal.

Goeido, what can I say? That 12-3 basho seems like a distant memory now. With Kotoshogiku having dropped out early we're going to have two kadoban ozeki, when was the last time that happened?

Kaisei fought hard but really he was able to get to 7 wins because he got two freebies against a yokozuna and an ozeki. He may have been only 5-10 if he didn't get those. Here's to hoping he can have a decent basho in Aki.

Tochinoshin, come back strong and keep us entertained!

I believe that Takarafuji is going to join Takayasu for the sekiwake slots next basho, and I believe that it will mark the third consecutive basho where both sekiwake are debuts.

Kotoyuki I think seriously needs to bring the bark back. He got shanked by the Kyokai because of it.

I'm going to love to see how Shodai does next basho, this kid is going to be something in the future, just needs to work on his tachi-ai a bit and not be so much a defensive wrestler.

Mitakeumi, keep working hard and learn, you're going to get better the more experience you get, I can feel it!

Congrats to Yoshikaze and Takanoiwa for getting those sansho and kinboshi (Yoshikaze)!

Endo, should take time off to heal.

Ichinojo, finishing with a 9-6 at mid-maegashira doesn't look promising when he's up in the joi next basho.

I really want to see Ura in makuuchi next basho, but I think we're going to see him get there in Kyushu!

I have a feeling that all the three Mongolian-born yokozuna may retire in 2018. By 2018, Hakuho will reach Makuuchi 1000 wins and 40+ yusho.

If Kise reaches win 13 next basho, whether yusho or not, NSK may recommend promotion anyway. However, I don't think he can win more than 11 next basho. As I said before, the Sept basho will be very competitive.

[orandashoho 720]

Kise is not just an "also-ran" that people lost faith in. He has brought home a huge pack of kensho that says otherwise.

[egparis18 622]

Well I am

Ichinojo, finishing with a 9-6 at mid-maegashira doesn't look promising when he's up in the joi next basho.

I think he's going to go up and down the banzuke for a while yet. Where he'll level-out I don't know, and don't care as long as he's at ease with himself.

[egparis18 622]

Kise is not just an "also-ran" that people lost faith in. He has brought home a huge pack of kensho that says otherwise.

Kise's Kise. Sumo wouldn't be the same without him.