Kaitetsu 293 Posted December 27, 2023 3 hours ago, Seiyashi said: Furiwake (ex-Hōchiyama) and Dekiyama (ex-Satoyama) have also switched kabu. https://sumo.or.jp/IrohaKyokaiInformation/detail?id=623 Wait, did you mean, Dekiyama (ex-Sadanofuji), right? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaitetsu 293 Posted December 27, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Seiyashi said: Per the oshirase, Otowayama will move immediately, having secured premises at Mukojima 2-chome 17-ban 11-go (appears to be a preexisting community centre based on GMaps). Tokotsuru, Takeuchi, and Hagane will move to Otowayama. https://sumo.or.jp/IrohaKyokaiInformation/detail?id=624 Presumably Shirasaka will join Otowayama from the off, rather than Michinoku as previously reported, to make 3 rikishi and 1 tokoyama. So the stable is already active? But hasnt the banzuke been written so the boys are still technically Michinoku? Edited December 27, 2023 by Kaitetsu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,086 Posted December 27, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kaitetsu said: Wait, did you mean, Dekiyama (ex-Sadanofuji), right? Yep, fixed. 3 hours ago, Kaitetsu said: Wait, so the stable is already active? But hasnt the banzuke been written so the boys are still technically Michinoku? I have no idea. The oshirase says that Otowayama's independence from Michinoku is effective today. How the kakkai handles this situation, I don't know, but the banzuke doesn't inscribe heya affiliation, so I don't think it's a biggie? The tell is Kakuryū's elder name, rather. Also, obviously it takes longer to put together a heya and transfer the name to Kakuryū than one day, so this must have been in the works for a while. I wonder if anyone has a copy of the physical banzuke and check what name Kakuryū is listed under. Edited December 27, 2023 by Seiyashi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
code_number3 704 Posted December 27, 2023 So what will happen with Michinoku's wrestlers once Michinoku reaches retirement age? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaitetsu 293 Posted December 27, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, code_number3 said: So what will happen with Michinoku's wrestlers once Michinoku reaches retirement age? That is what doesnt make sense to me. Ive come up with a few scenarios of what might happen (watch all of these be wrong by March): Option 1 - Despite the weird branching out, Michinoku-beya will close and all of them will eventually end up in Otowayama, if Michinoku wants to really keep the current premises to himself and his chanko business. Option 2 - Michinoku does not want a direct heir in any sense, so he wants to scramble his rikishi onto affiliated stables for… no reason we can figure Option 3 - Urakaze (ex-Shikishima), who retired right after transferring to Michinoku, is the intended stable heir, becoming stable master. Edited December 27, 2023 by Kaitetsu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted December 27, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Seiyashi said: Not sure how much I trust this though, considering the amount of absolutely erroneous speculation from Japanese sources on this page alone. Yeah, I'll say. I wonder if the initial bit about Onosho obtaining Otowayama as added anonymously to ja.wiki three and a half years ago was totally bogus, and all subsequent mentions of that connection in the tabloid press were just based on that fake news, or if it's another Toyonoshima situation where a scheduled succession broke down over money issues. Still, it's odd to see a kabu move across ichimon lines when such an obvious claimant exists in the heya of the previous owner. In any case, I guess we're technically still within the permitted 5-year timeframe for kabu transfers, with ex-Masurao having quit back in September 2019. I suppose these moves do substantiate the recent tabloid reporting of major breakdowns within Michinoku-beya. I guess the most likely scenario is that the heya just shuts down in April now and the rikishi will go every which way. Maybe we'll see some more (but not all) of them actually join Otowayama-beya then; he's not really in a position to take anyone but his uchi-deshi at this time (Hagane is a different matter as a veteran heya manager type without a real wrestling career anymore, and Edit: of course he's originally from the shuttered Izutsu-beya anyway). Interestingly the Kyokai web staff was apparently instructed to do a real rush job on putting that information online; there's a listing for Otowayama-beya (with bad capitalization on the English version) and Hagane has already been re-assigned - I only noticed that because @Doitsuyama just updated the DB with the Hatsu banzuke today and the update already picked up Otowayama-beya for Hagane from the Kyokai banzuke data. (Sorry for the ping - Takeuchi's Kyokai profile was also updated, but him being banzuke-gai the DB update didn't catch that one, so his DB profile doesn't have it yet.) 5 hours ago, Seiyashi said: Source, for what it's worth: https://t.co/jyGTVDfZa8 There was more recent coverage of that than this article from nearly a year ago, though, e.g. as detailed here by Akinomaki. But yeah, it's interesting how little else of that article turned out correct - the claim that there are already plans for Kakuryu to lend out Otowayama after obtaining it, the claim that Izutsu will be borrowed by Tokushoryu (it went to Akiseyama instead), the claim that ex-Kotoyuki will drop the Kitajin share so it can be borrowed by Daishomaru (Kotoyuki did drop it, but Tenkaiho is now using it, and Daishomaru continues to languish in makushita altogether)... Edited December 27, 2023 by Asashosakari 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yarimotsu 578 Posted December 27, 2023 16 minutes ago, Kaitetsu said: the intended Michinoku heir, freeing up Urakaze or vice-versa by May, Would we not expect in this scenario that current Michinoku stays on as consultant until age 70 or thereabouts? Thus not freeing up either kabu? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubinhaad 11,682 Posted December 27, 2023 The Furiwake/Dekiyama switch seems pointless on the surface, since both oyakata are members of Sakaigawa-beya, but the opening line of the oshirase says keisho-shumei, suggesting an actual change of ownership here. Hochiyama, as the senior oyakata of the two, must be the owner of Dekiyama now. Whether Sadanofuji is also the definitive owner of Furiwake now is a little more ambiguous, since there was the idea that Myogiryu had acquired it from the Azumazeki widow a while back. Unfortunately I don't think an update to the duties list will help us here, since these two were already at the top of the borrowing section. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted December 27, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Yubinhaad said: The Furiwake/Dekiyama switch seems pointless on the surface, since both oyakata are members of Sakaigawa-beya, but the opening line of the oshirase says keisho-shumei, suggesting an actual change of ownership here. I'm really wondering how to interpret that since "keisho" is only present in the opening line, not the two separate statements about the actual successions. My first impression was that it's just a general "On the subject of toshiyori inheritance and succession, we would like to notify the following..." introductory note and doesn't specifically apply to the two changes. We'll know for sure at a later date, I guess. Edit: They've both been toshiyori for so long that I think if either of them now owns their new share they'll be promoted to shunin right at the next opportunity in March/April. By the way: 3 hours ago, Yubinhaad said: Hochiyama, as the senior oyakata of the two, must be the owner of Dekiyama now. Senior by age and tenure, but I'm honestly not sure if Hochiyama is the higher priority kabu target among the two. Sadanofuji had the much better career and he's from the same prefecture as Sakaigawa-oyakata. Edited December 27, 2023 by Asashosakari 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raishu 208 Posted December 27, 2023 5 hours ago, Yubinhaad said: The Furiwake/Dekiyama switch seems pointless on the surface, since both oyakata are members of Sakaigawa-beya, but the opening line of the oshirase says keisho-shumei, suggesting an actual change of ownership here. Hochiyama, as the senior oyakata of the two, must be the owner of Dekiyama now. [...] I am not familiar with the Kyokai's oshirase (in Japanese), but does ownership change imply it has to be the current holder of the kabu? On my personal kabu chess board, I have Myogiryu as the owner of Furiwake (after that newspaper article emerged) and Sadanoumi as the successor of Dekiyama. Maybe ex-Dewanohana has just sold the share to Sadanoumi (a way more decorated and probably financially potent rikishi) who is lending the kabu to Hochiyama now and that is reflected in the notice? I have never regarded neither Hochiyama nor Sadanofuji as potential kabu owners, since the shortage of shares and the availability of many high-proifile sekitori (with more money and aspirations to become oyakata) would be too much of a competition for them to score a share permanently. The same could be applied to other guys with "weak" sekitori careers like Tenkaiho, Shotenro, Asahisho or Akiseyama. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fwuzzle23 66 Posted December 28, 2023 11 hours ago, Seiyashi said: I have no idea. The oshirase says that Otowayama's independence from Michinoku is effective today. How the kakkai handles this situation, I don't know, but the banzuke doesn't inscribe heya affiliation, so I don't think it's a biggie? The tell is Kakuryū's elder name, rather. Also, obviously it takes longer to put together a heya and transfer the name to Kakuryū than one day, so this must have been in the works for a while. I wonder if anyone has a copy of the physical banzuke and check what name Kakuryū is listed under. I'm fairly sure that whatever is on the printed version of the banzuke isn't considered binding for the duration of the basho. We've seen enough examples of current/former sekitori retiring just after banzuke release, and having the retirement properly acknowledged by the NSK, being counted as retired instead of kyujo; or other changes of status happening pre-basho or even during basho. In any case, the NSK site already has the page for Otowayama-stable up with Hagane listed as its one active rikishi (since the other transferree is off-banzuke), so that's going to be how they handle things for January. My assumption is that ex-Kakuryu will still be listed as Kakuryu-oyakata on the printed banzuke because that's how things were when this banzuke was written out weeks ago, but he'll be acknowleged as Otowayama-oyakata regardless. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted December 28, 2023 2 hours ago, fwuzzle23 said: I.... the NSK site already has the page for Otowayama-stable up with Hagane listed as its one active rikishi ... Strange. The NSK DB is listing the heya as "otowayama". It is the only heya which is not capitalized. It appears that way in several places. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,086 Posted December 28, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Asojima said: Strange. The NSK DB is listing the heya as "otowayama". It is the only heya which is not capitalized. It appears that way in several places. I wouldn't read anything into it - it's probably just an automatically propagated error from a common source. Asashosakari has also flagged it as being due to a rush job. Edited December 28, 2023 by Seiyashi 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted December 28, 2023 The duties roster was updated today, but as expected nothing interesting in there; just the new myoseki for Kakuryu, Hochiyama and Sadanofuji, and Shikoroyama is officially listed as vacant. 7 hours ago, Akinomaki said: The rijikai yesterday acknowledged Tatsutagawa as acting shisho for the Hatsu basho - but for some (I guess money) reason he still doesn't take the name and the heya officially. The reports always say: it is planned that ... The NSK announced it today. http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2023122800692 The official oshirase for that: https://www.sumo.or.jp/IrohaKyokaiInformation/detail?id=625 Safe to say now that if/when Homasho becomes Shikoroyama, they won't be backdating it to Terao's date of death. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faustonowaka 129 Posted December 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Asashosakari said: … and Shikoroyama is officially listed as vacant. From 1933 until Terao’s passing, this kabu was only owned by 3 different peolpe 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tigerboy1966 1,448 Posted December 29, 2023 The kabu merry-go-round makes my head spin. Might be a very obvious question, but does the new Otowayama stable stay within the Tokitsukaze ichimon? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bettega 431 Posted January 30, 2024 Quick question: what is the ranking of Tomozuna? toshiyori, shunun or inn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asapedroryu 235 Posted January 30, 2024 2 hours ago, bettega said: Quick question: what is the ranking of Tomozuna? toshiyori, shunun or inn? Sumo Prime Time Main Guest. 1 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaitetsu 293 Posted January 30, 2024 2 hours ago, bettega said: Quick question: what is the ranking of Tomozuna? toshiyori, shunun or inn? Toshiyori I think, they usually announce promotions iirc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kamitsuumi 399 Posted January 30, 2024 Full positions are posted on the Japanese version of the kyokai website https://www.sumo.or.jp/IrohaKyokai/rijikai/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bettega 431 Posted January 30, 2024 (edited) 18 hours ago, Kaitetsu said: Toshiyori I think, they usually announce promotions iirc I asked because I'm confuse if he owns or borrows a kabu Edited January 31, 2024 by bettega Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaitetsu 293 Posted January 31, 2024 1 hour ago, bettega said: I asked because I'm confuse if she owns or borrows a kabu we are pretty sure he owns, as he was immediately placed above all known borrowers in the JSA list, so alongside Ikioi and the like 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubinhaad 11,682 Posted February 4, 2024 After around 18 months with Isenoumi-beya, the Kyokai website now shows Takashima-oyakata (former Sekiwake Koboyama) as a member of Oitekaze-beya. He has three-and-a-half years left of his sanyo term. I don't think there's been an official notice of it, but this must have been decided in the post-Hatsu basho rijikai meetings, as a Jan 14th archive.org snapshot of the oyakata list has him in Isenoumi. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted February 5, 2024 (edited) 7 hours ago, Yubinhaad said: After around 18 months with Isenoumi-beya, the Kyokai website now shows Takashima-oyakata (former Sekiwake Koboyama) as a member of Oitekaze-beya. He has three-and-a-half years left of his sanyo term. I don't think there's been an official notice of it, but this must have been decided in the post-Hatsu basho rijikai meetings, as a Jan 14th archive.org snapshot of the oyakata list has him in Isenoumi. It must have been earlier than the rijikai meeting - Google's cached version of Isenoumi (en) already didn't have him in Isenoumi anymore, dated January 22; here it is saved to archive.org. The oldest information I can find that outright shows him in Oitekaze is Bing's cache of Oitekaze (en), dated Jan 27, I made an archive.org snapshot of that as well. But that's less informative than the Jan 22 view. Edit: I note with some puzzlement that this is the second time in his late-stage oyakata career that ex-Koboyama is attached to Oitekaze... Edited February 5, 2024 by Asashosakari 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muhomatsu 229 Posted February 5, 2024 And Takashima moving to Oitekaze could be the answer to the Daieishō kabu question. We know Daieishō picked up his first uchi-deshi in January. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites