Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

[Rainoyama 1,157]

6 minutes ago, Benihana said:

I was curious myself, so i checked.

Google Translate got it correct, but the rest is...well...

Google Translate japanese -> german -> my own translation to english (2nd part only):

Asano Yamaseki, who in the Kokugikan became a haori-figurine, returned to the Takasago-room and could with his masters and his followers take a waiting picture . If this is a room without win-experience, he might not be walking so well. Preparation only, because the room in the makuuchi-championship many times experienced. Takasago-room, i ask myself.

There are devices for spoken words coming surprisingly close to the Star Trek universal translator. Why doen´sn't this work for simple text?

It's quite funny when you know japanese, it's not that far off actually, just very very very literal ! for instance the word heya means a sumo stable in the sumo world but the world is much more commonly used to say "room" so it makes sense.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Rainoyama

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

1 hour ago, ScreechingOwl said:

There have been many comments on the judging, but most of them have missed the obvious points.

1. The judges are biased. I'm not saying they are trying to make bad calls or there is any conspiracy going on. I'm merely pointing out that they are in the position of judging rikishi from their own heya. This is an active bias. There is no other sport I know of where, at the professional level, the judges are also managers/coaches/owners of the players they are judging.

2. The judges aren't professional judges. They are professional heya owners and former wrestlers. They have not dedicated years of their life to the art and/or science of judging. This is just another duty for them. Does anyone honestly think that being a coach and former player is the best qualification to be a judge?

3. Most of the mistakes the judges made aren't on video replays, but are because they don't call for a mono-ii after a very close match. It's hard to know why this occurs. I'm guessing poor positioning, poor eyesight, and poor judgment each play a role.

4. It is NOT a problem to not have the judges review the video tape. This is what happens in baseball: if a close play is challenged the umpire's call is reviewed by people looking at video replays in an office in New York. They look at the replays. They can only overrule the umpire's call if the video review is conclusive that the call was wrong. In many cases it is not conclusive: the play is too close or the angles available are not conclusive. In this case the original call stands. The same rule should be in effect in sumo. 

In any case, the sumo judging system is antiquated, and this won't be the last time five ill-trained, unprofessional, and biased judges make a mistake. Let's just hope it's the last one that determines a yusho.

 

But we have a trained judge, the gyoji. Also, who would be better suited to judge from ringside than former wrestlers? Especially if it's not about points but just about outcome.

I also don't see the bias, at least not in the direction you do. If at all, I fully expect the ringside stablemasters to judge their own deshi harsher, but maybe I'm a romantic...

The no-mono-ii close calls can be a problem, though. I agree. I seem to remember that the gyoji MUST decide. If the rigside guys cannot be arsed, the close (and potentially wrong) call won't be overturned, as I guess the video judges are active only on request. To minimally improve the system, the gyoji should be awarded the power to call the mono-ii (which even ringside rikishi may; see Hakuho).

All in all, it's sumo, not tennis. I'm fine with how it goes as I wouldn't like to see rikishi in motion capture suits. As you quote baseball I simply assume that we have a different sports socialization.

[Benihana 1,901]

1 minute ago, Rainoyama said:

It's quite funny when you know japanese, it's not that far off actually, just very very very literal !

That's my point. For results like this, you just need a dictionary and an algorhythm for translating word by word. Translating text online should be much easier to do correctly, compared to mobile devices which have to deal with spoken language. A written a is an written a. A spoken a transforms to an o pretty quick, at least here around. I really appreciate the efforts of some forum members who post links to news-articles, but without knowledge of the japanese language it's pretty useless.

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

4 hours ago, Dwale said:

How about Ryuden?

Ryuden should get the Shukun-sho at every tournament he turns up by default. Six years in the lower divisions, than finally sekitori, then boom, injury, back to Jonokuchi and stasis for two years. Fighting his way back up within another two. And look how he fights.

These are the guys I'm watching sumo for.

[neonbelly 226]

3 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Ryuden should get the Shukun-sho at every tournament he turns up by default. Six years in the lower divisions, than finally sekitori, then boom, injury, back to Jonokuchi and stasis for two years. Fighting his way back up within another two. And look how he fights.

These are the guys I'm watching sumo for.

Low key I think he's the most handsome sekitori, too. Most defined features on a Japanese wrestler since Chiyonofuji.

[Rainoyama 1,157]

 

Another funny one from twitter: Kasugano oyakata's (Tochinoshin's oyakata) reaction after his deshi's cruel loss on day 13 ?

"Your bow was not good enough you idiot ! there's two day left do your best !"

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

2 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

Low key I think he's the most handsome sekitori, too. Most defined features on a Japanese wrestler since Chiyonofuji Terao.

Fixed.

[neonbelly 226]

1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

Fixed.

Honorary mention.

[Bumpkin 438]

What a difference one bad call makes. If the judges had gotten Tochinoshin - Asanoyama correct, the leaderboard would be:

S1w Tochinoshin 11-3

M8w Asanoyama 11-3

Y1w Kakuryu         10-4

M3w Tamawashi  10-4

Now that would be a Day 15!

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

9 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

What a difference one bad call makes. If the judges had gotten Tochinoshin - Asanoyama correct, the leaderboard would be:

S1w Tochinoshin 11-3

M8w Asanoyama 11-3

Y1w Kakuryu         10-4

M3w Tamawashi  10-4

Now that would be a Day 15!

Probably with reversed roles for Kakuryu and Tochinoshin (a henka being less likely).

Edit: ...and who knows if Asanoyama even had gotten the better of Goeido in that case. All pointless speculation...

Edited May 25, 2019 by Jakusotsu

[Rocks 1,807]

What a basho.

Congrats to Asanoyama on the yusho. Well deserved. Great win versus Goeido. And there would be no asterisk regardless IMO. Yes,  Tochinoshin did not touch down or go out first against Asanoyama, but that was all he did. Asanoyama pwned him in that match. 

Congrats to Tochinoshin on regaining his Ozeki rank. I do not like henkas but given the circumstances it was hardly surprising and only a mild one at that. He sold it very well too. Tochi was hyped as heck at the last salt throw and the look on Kakuryu's face was of someone planning to take the hardest hit he could. Given the shaft he got the day before  it's hard not to give Tochi a pass on this one.

Let the sanshos rain down! Depending on how Day 15 shakes out there could be a bunch I think.

[Gospodin 187]

A question: in your opinions, how will do Asanoyama in the next basho? To Sanyaku from M8 is a significant leap (to state the obvious). Though he is clearly one of the rising stars, imho his sumo isn‘t at that level yet. With Takakeisho back, Ryuden in the joi, maybe Hakuho, I expect him to be in for a thorough „calibration“ ( i.e. getting his behind handed to him). 

[Rocks 1,807]

1 minute ago, Gospodin said:

A question: in your opinions, how will do Asanoyama in the next basho? To Sanyaku from M8 is a significant leap (to state the obvious). Though he is clearly one of the rising stars, imho his sumo isn‘t at that level yet. With Takakeisho back, Ryuden in the joi, maybe Hakuho, I expect him to be in for a thorough „calibration“ ( i.e. getting his behind handed to him). 

The same. He looked great here but I'm not too sure he'd have won this yusho if he had faced all these guys early in the basho.

[Benihana 1,901]

9 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

A question: in your opinions, how will do Asanoyama in the next basho? To Sanyaku from M8 is a significant leap (to state the obvious). Though he is clearly one of the rising stars, imho his sumo isn‘t at that level yet. With Takakeisho back, Ryuden in the joi, maybe Hakuho, I expect him to be in for a thorough „calibration“ ( i.e. getting his behind handed to him). 

With sanyaku at full strength? Minced meat. If he proves me wrong, he'll rise up on my next-Y/O list a fair bit.

I expect him to be placed as Komusubi next basho. Since 1908 M8->K happened 16 times. Of these 15 sekitori (Wakanami managed it twice), only 3 had a KK. And for all the KKs it was neither sanyaku debut, nor were the guys nearly as green as Asanoyama still is.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&rowcount=5&form1_rank=m8&form1_m=on&form2_rank=k&form2_m=on

Just for comparison:

M8-> S happened once 1907, but ended with a MK.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=m8&form1_m=on&form2_rank=s&form2_m=on

M8->M1 happened 57 times since 1902 with 21 KKs. To find someone as green as Asanoyama you have to go back to 1995 and Tosanoumi

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=13

Whole list:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=m8&form1_m=on&form2_rank=m1&form2_m=on

[Highway 46]

Lol this was epic in some ways. No one can say anything against Tochi pulling a henka, after the FIFA-level referring yesterday the sumo elders can't complain. Plus a yokozuna should be ready for anything.

Congrats to Asanoyama, what can you say. Imagine if a month ago someone told him he would be basho champion and getting a cup by Donald Trump.

[Dwale 419]

2 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Ryuden should get the Shukun-sho at every tournament he turns up by default. Six years in the lower divisions, than finally sekitori, then boom, injury, back to Jonokuchi and stasis for two years. Fighting his way back up within another two. And look how he fights.

These are the guys I'm watching sumo for.

He has certainly commanded my notice and respect.

[Jabbamaru 166]

Holy f*!

Just saw the nhk highlight's now... worst basho ever. officially. And tomorrow Mr. T on the dohyo to make it even more f* up. Congrats to Toshi and Asa no matter what...

[Kotomiyama 165]

I loved Tochinoshin's henka, it felt as if he wanted to send a message to the judges.

I love the current state of sumo, with so many different winners recently. Refreshing and exciting. Asanoyama was looking good for the future and now he is already a yusho winner.

I only want Enho KK for a perfect yusho. Come on chiquitín!

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

13 minutes ago, Jabbamaru said:

worst basho ever. officially.

I couldn't disagree more. Hatsu 2017, closely followed by Hatsu 2016 and Aki 2016. Where the stars were made...

[Yamanashi 3,725]

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Fixed.

"Low key I think he's the most handsome sekitori, too. Most defined features on a Japanese wrestler since Chiyonofuji. "

Terao has more "well-defined" features.  Chiyonofuji was more handsome.

[dingo 1,160]

That was a big fat middle finger from Tochinoshin to anyone who doubted his win yesterday. Also, he made sure that he won't get anywhere nearby the tawara 

[Jabbamaru 166]

37 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

I couldn't disagree more. Hatsu 2017, closely followed by Hatsu 2016 and Aki 2016. Where the stars were made...

I would happily exchange all these three together for a good old Hak's zensho

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Just viewed the matchups for the senshuraku final day.  The man with a hiramaku yusho, i.e., Asanoyama, will not be fighting Kakuryu, nor will he be in any of the koreyori sanyaku final three bouts.  But he is still rather aptly paired against Mitakeumi, which in my mind is a pairing of two of sumo's future stars.  Chances are, however, that he will not be "performing" before Prime Minister Abe or the Donald.  That will make receiving a trophy from both men a tad empty.  "So you came to present me a trophy, but you didn't come to see me (in action)..."

Edited May 25, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Gospodin 187]

1 hour ago, Kotomiyama said:

I only want Enho KK for a perfect yusho. Come on chiquitín!

Enho better goes kyujo. Win or lose, keeping going with his injured leg can only hurt his future performance. Take away his lightning speed and he is primed for a makushita career. I am not familiar with oyakata-rikishi-„mentor“- relations (and after 15 years following sumo I still feel feel like knowing nothing) but I really do hope Hakuho has a say here and gives the right advice. To quote a famous European soccer player: „If you really want to be successful for a long time, better save your bullets.“

[bettega 427]

What a weird basho. I only watch sumo for 8y (exactly, since Kaisei debut in Makuuchi - Natsu 2011) and I find this "anybody-can-get-the-yusho" kinda sad and underwhelming. I miss the technical prowess of the sekitori from Hakuho era. They do not get many Yusho but it seemed to me we had better fights - even now Hakuho in -end-of-career is better than anybody else by a kilometer. The Ozeki are a joke.