Haru Basho 2013 - Discussion Thread

[Asojima 2,874]

I think the Ozeki field in general has been lackluster as of late. And this tournament is no different.

If an Ozeki is not in the yusho race, he needs only 8 wins to keep from going kadoban. Any effort to win more than that is useless. It also opens him to a possible injury which could be career threatening.

[Nabuko 11]

I am curious about Jokoryu Oiwato bout since it seems rather close to call Oiwato was in air and Jokoryu was also close to fail.Some comment?

[Bugman 384]

Henka-ho!

Yeah, that was a pretty dick move, I thought. And right here someone was saying that no one would dare do such a thing to the yokozuna!

Is it my fevered imagination, or did i read somewhere that Hak used a henka to clinch his Yokozunahood?

Hakuho cliched his promotion after the 2007 Natsu basho with a zensho yusho.

The previous basho, he henka'd Asashoryu in the play-off for the yusho. Asa was seen smiling when he returned to his mark and that was something I don't ever recall seeing him do after a loss.

This is the evidence http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Results.aspx?b=200703&d=16

Ah thanks for that, i had a feeling i wasn't remembering what i'd read correctly. :-)

[Raishu 218]

Henka-ho!

Yeah, that was a pretty dick move, I thought. And right here someone was saying that no one would dare do such a thing to the yokozuna!

Is it my fevered imagination, or did i read somewhere that Hak used a henka to clinch his Yokozunahood?

Hakuho cliched his promotion after the 2007 Natsu basho with a zensho yusho.

The previous basho, he henka'd Asashoryu in the play-off for the yusho. Asa was seen smiling when he returned to his mark and that was something I don't ever recall seeing him do after a loss.

This is the evidence http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Results.aspx?b=200703&d=16

Well, you should also mention how Asa got into this playoff. ;-)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=878&b=200703

[Andreas21 219]

What's interesting is how he went from M#5 10-5, K 12-3, S 13-2 and S 11-4 and then BAM! Ozeki promotion and nothing. I wonder what makes a wrestler stop like that.

A mixture of enhanced motivation, lucky situation, and a few helping hands, the ratio of which is not openly communicated.

I'd like to add that among the current Ozeki/Yokozuna pack Baruto is the only one who performed once during the Ozekihood (Yok promotion does not count) at a level required for Ozeki promotion (>=33 in three, >=10 each). And this is historically the normal situation. Has anyone named the few career Ozeki refulfilling the promotion criteria?

This makes me optimistic that Baruto will get his chances for Ozeki repromotion. Possibly, he is currently healthy enough to start it.

[Kuroyama 715]

Henka-ho!

Yeah, that was a pretty dick move, I thought. And right here someone was saying that no one would dare do such a thing to the yokozuna!

Is it my fevered imagination, or did i read somewhere that Hak used a henka to clinch his Yokozunahood?

Hakuho cliched his promotion after the 2007 Natsu basho with a zensho yusho.

The previous basho, he henka'd Asashoryu in the play-off for the yusho. Asa was seen smiling when he returned to his mark and that was something I don't ever recall seeing him do after a loss.

This is the evidence http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Results.aspx?b=200703&d=16

Well, you should also mention how Asa got into this playoff. ;-)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=878&b=200703

Exactly. So let's not have any more of this, "No one would dare henka the yokozuna!" nonsense.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Kuroyama

[Igordemorais 79]

It would be easy for Tak to gain weight through weight training and overeating IF he didn't also train 3 hours a day every day. But he does. With his metabolism and intense sumo schedule, without pharmacological assistance there is no way he can gain any considerable weight. My guess is with his genetics, it's all he can do to keep the weight he already has, he struggles to come up above 101 but still falls to 96 sometimes....

for a guy who resorted to insulin, I'd say his fate is sealed.

[Jakusotsu 6,383]

What's interesting is how he went from M#5 10-5, K 12-3, S 13-2 and S 11-4 and then BAM! Ozeki promotion and nothing. I wonder what makes a wrestler stop like that.

To play devil's advocate: At least Kotooshu won a yusho, which is more than the other current Ozeki can claim.

But switching back to holy advocate: I'm long looking forward to the day when I don't have to watch his petty performance on the dohyo anymore. I'd rather have Kaio back.

[Igordemorais 79]

Baruto won a Yusho. Kisenosato got promoted a year ago...Kotoshogiku a year and a half. Kakuryu not even.

Give them a bit of time to mature. Though perhaps a couple are not cut of Yokozuna cloth (Giku I'm looking at you), others may grow into it.

[shumitto 418]

I'd rather have Kaio back.

Noooooo . Kotooshu is much more tolerable, but I don't know exactly why. :-P

Hakuho is just trying to save some energy to avoid tiredness in the last week. And it will work well for him this time, now that Harumafuji is 2 down and the sole pursuer is Baruto.

Lazy refereeing on that Jokoryu-Oiwato bout. The NHK took the time to show slo-mo replays, but our sharp-eyed shinpan of course knew better. 3-3 is not bad for Oiwato, though.

Miyabiyama is not even at joi-makushita-level at this stage of his career, and in Juryo we also see Hochiyama on his last legs. I wouldn't put a wooden nickel on his return. Kimurayama and Yoshiazuma are likely to follow suit, and despite the good start (5-1) Asasekiryu has had to work a bit too much to be where he is, using a great deal of lateral movements to remain inbounds during a couple of not very easy bouts. In other words, a makuuchi return is not exactly in sight for the veteran, but I expect some fighting spirit before the final bow.

Also calling my attention are Kotoyuki's weird pattern of way too many losses in the first week (1-6 in November, 2-5 in January and 0-6 so far), Shohozan's (expected) clever approach to sumo with his very nice bouts and Shoho over-reliance on cheap sumo to redeem his long and rather fruitless career. His last victim was up and coming Endo. But that doesn't keep the crowd from cheering the local boy up.

Edited March 15, 2013 by shumitto

[kuroimori 1,634]

Now that "Kotokyujo" has pulled out of the action once again,

it is now up to "Kotogaburiku" to defend at least some ozeki-pride for the Sadogatake stable.

A basho to forget so far for Sad-ogatake heya, as their 3 sekitori combine for a feeble 5-13 record after Day 6.

Edited March 15, 2013 by kuroimori

[ScreechingOwl 343]

I am curious about Jokoryu Oiwato bout since it seems rather close to call Oiwato was in air and Jokoryu was also close to fail.Some comment?

The Jokoryu-Oiwato bout looked awfully close live, and in fact Oiwato (or at least the JSA cameraman) appeared to have thought he won it. I can think of three possible explainations for the reason the win was awarded to Jokoryu without a mono-ii:

1. The most likely reason is that there is an unwritten "dead man's rule" that when one rikishi has been pushed completely outside the bales but hasn't actually touched and the other rikishi touches first the aggressor is awarded the victory. No one would really want to see a rikishi who was hurled three rows into the audience in the air "win" because the motion of the throw causes the initiator to touch first. I knew there was no way that Oiwato was going to win that bout (but wouldn't have been shocked if there had been a mono and rematch). So that "rule" may have been the reason.

2. It's possible that Oiwato's right heel touched out long before either rikishi went down. His right foot was precariously on the straw and may have touched out. From the JSA camera angle it's impossible to tell, but if it did it was an easy call.

3. One has to be a realist about the rikishi involved. Jokoryu was the aggressor, Oiwato did a "lame" push down as he was being hurtled out of the ring. Moreover, Jokoryu is a very promising young rikishi. He made it to makuuchi at 24 only because he graduated college before entering professional sumo, and he's going to be a sekiwake, if not ozeki, at some point in his career. Oiwato is a 31 year old makuuchi rookie. He's a journeyman who will be very fortunate if he ever gets to mid-levels of maegashira. Maybe such factors shouldn't influence a decision, but it would be naive to think they never do.

[Asashosakari 20,208]

1. The most likely reason is that there is an unwritten "dead man's rule" that when one rikishi has been pushed completely outside the bales but hasn't actually touched and the other rikishi touches first the aggressor is awarded the victory. No one would really want to see a rikishi who was hurled three rows into the audience in the air "win" because the motion of the throw causes the initiator to touch first. I knew there was no way that Oiwato was going to win that bout (but wouldn't have been shocked if there had been a mono and rematch). So that "rule" may have been the reason.

I agree with that interpretation; textbook example of the shinitai rule being applied, IMHO. Mono-ii are rather rare in these situations and usually imply that there was no clear aggressor.

[ALAKTORN 346]

What the hell just happened in Hakuhō’s match?

[Masumasumasu 902]

What the hell just happened in Hakuhō’s match?

Tokitenku got screwed, that's what. The gyogi wasn't facing forward and Hakuho managed to steal the bout.

[Gernobono 467]

What the hell just happened in Hakuhō’s match?

Tokitenku got screwed, that's what. The gyogi wasn't facing forward and Hakuho managed to steal the bout.

jikan-mae that is

remembering kitazakura

Edited March 16, 2013 by Gernobono

[Morty 1,518]

Is that legit what happened in the Hak match? As Yok is he allowed to dictate when they go or did they let him get away with the mistake because he's the Yok?

[Asameshimae 220]

Though I have read that rikishi can start a bout any time they like that is my first time to see it. I have always thought there should be more of this kind of thing. Imagine the increased level of excitement if you are never sure when they are going to go at it? I'd like to think we will see more of this, but I won't get my hopes up.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Asanomeshi

[ALAKTORN 346]

I honestly thought Tokitenku looked pretty ready to start the match as well… he had one fist down and was hovering his other fist just above the ground. I think it was a mistake on both parts, or possibly Hakuhō noticed how Tokitenku was moving and thought it was a good idea to have a surprise start?

Edit: well the glossary on this website says that it’s legit: http://www.sumoforum.net/glossary.html#jikanmae “jikan mae, mutual understanding between rikishi to begin tachiai, compare with matta”

Edited March 16, 2013 by ALAKTORN

[Ajisen 15]

I reason it this way.

Tokitenku had the knuckles down already ( at least one) and Hakuho swiped the dohyo and charged.

If Tokitenku had stepped back or up there could be reason for a restart but he reacted by moving into the fight as his instincts dictated.

It's like tennis ( assumption) where if you return a serve which would obviously be out, play carries on.

Hakuho was just that fast off the blocks though.

**slient relief happy dance for HF** so no jinx for tomorrow.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Ajisen

[Asojima 2,874]

Tokitenku's hand movements were identical to his tachiai movements in the previous matches in this basho. It appeared that he was inviting a jikan-mae, and Hakuho obliged.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Asojima

[Asameshimae 220]

The announcer at the end said that according to Tokitenku, it was HIS idea to start early as a strategy and Hakuho went along with it, but Tokitenku thought the gyoji was going to stop the bout, and he let himself get forced out of the ring.

I don't know if the English commentary mentioned this, but there probably wasn't time as they brought it up just before the switch over to the news.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Asanomeshi

[ScreechingOwl 343]

It's very rare to start before the fan goes forward, but as Alaktorn says it's perfectly legal -- the requirement is mutual assent between the rikishi. Harumafuji, back when he was Ama, had a match like this a couple of years ago. Tokitenku was in position and rocking forward, which is a pretty clear sign he's ready to go and he met Hakuho's charge. As Ajisen noted, if he had remained motionless there would have been a matta called. Hakuho's actions were entirely appropriate here.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Harumafuji, back when he was Ama, had a match like this a couple of years ago.

I would love to see that, can you perhaps recall when it happened, roughly?

[Asameshimae 220]

"Hakuho's actions were entirely appropriate here."

Right, this should not even be in question. Tokitenku simply didn't play his cards right, Hakuho played them for him.