Haru Basho 2013 - Discussion Thread

[Asojima 2,874]

As Gernobono mentioned above, Kitazakura often tried to get a jikan-mae going, but he had very few takers. It is rarely seen now, but it was not that unusual back in the 70's when I started watching.

[Asashosakari 20,209]

Its a mystery why Tokitenku wanted a jikan-mae. Hakuho seemed weirded out too by that move. I cannot wait to read their comments in the "rikishi talk of day 8" . In the actual bout Hakuho was a bit reluctant to make an offensive attempt and he gave away his morozashi quite easily. The win was good though .... he was in no real danger in any point of the bout and the tsuridashi was indicative of his power (even though it didn't impress some people (Sigh...))

Ama and Hakuho start early and jikan-mae becomes reality. Hakuho benefitted more of the early start and got in good position. Ama persistently counters with technical wriggling but fails to wriggle enough to turn the table. Hakuho wins.

Edit: Whoah, March 16 this year, too.

The Ama-Hakuho bout is here (ASF download).

Edited March 16, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Asameshimae 220]

Any more? Would love to see some from further back. I guess ones from the 70s is a lot to ask for. I looked on YouTube with a few choice key words but got nothing.

[Asashosakari 20,209]

Any more? Would love to see some from further back. I guess ones from the 70s is a lot to ask for. I looked on YouTube with a few choice key words but got nothing.

Since Kitazakura was already mentioned:

Kitazakura-Hochiyama, Aki 2007

Hochiyama-Kitazakura again, Hatsu 2008

Kitazakura-Wakakoyu, Hatsu 2008 (just three days later)

Edit: Shirononami-Kitazakura, Natsu 2008 (also demonstrates the proper [non-]reaction upon an unwanted jikan-mae)

And another one: Ryuho-Kitazakura, Haru 2007

And yet another: Shirononami-Kitazakura, Haru 2008

Edited March 16, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Orion 431]

It's very rare to start before the fan goes forward, but as Alaktorn says it's perfectly legal -- the requirement is mutual assent between the rikishi. Harumafuji, back when he was Ama, had a match like this a couple of years ago. Tokitenku was in position and rocking forward, which is a pretty clear sign he's ready to go and he met Hakuho's charge. As Ajisen noted, if he had remained motionless there would have been a matta called. Hakuho's actions were entirely appropriate here.

Jikanmae is rare now, but not so long ago it was much more common -- and very popular. Remember, it takes two to make a jikanmae, and certain men were especially fond of it. So during the shikiri-naoshi we commentators would be watching those men, in particular, for the two contenders to make eye contact. When they did, there was almost always an identifiable signal, a look that was only a widening of the eyes, and an almost imperceptible nod, and they were ready, we were ready -- and so was the gyoji.

Orion, FWIW

[Tochinofuji 405]

I believe another more recent example was Harumafuji - Kotomitsuki on day 10 of 2010 Natsu basho. I recall Hiro Morita being pretty surprised during his commentary of the bout, but can't seem to dig up a video of it (granted, I haven't tried very hard, so there is likely some footage out there).

[Masumasumasu 902]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

[Fay 1,677]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Who is the desperate Yokozuna? Did I miss something (Eh?) ?

[Tochinofuji 405]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Who is the desperate Yokozuna? Did I miss something (Eh?) ?

I was going to say, I don't think there was a lot of doubt that Hakuho was likely to win the match at any rate (given their 17-1 record, with Toki last beating Hakuho in 2007). Plus, I'm not sure it counts as desperation on the part of Hakuho when the tactic was admittedly Tokitenku's.

[Asashosakari 20,209]

I believe another more recent example was Harumafuji - Kotomitsuki on day 10 of 2010 Natsu basho. I recall Hiro Morita being pretty surprised during his commentary of the bout, but can't seem to dig up a video of it (granted, I haven't tried very hard, so there is likely some footage out there).

Here you go. The jikan-mae-ness of it is kinda hard to see due to the initial camera angle though.

[Asashosakari 20,209]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Don't know about yokozuna, but it's no good for forum posters.

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

The Ama-Hakuho bout is here (ASF download).

Actually I uploaded all my old (and low-resolution) stuff to youtube and linked it within Sumo Reference, just go here or here for that bout which incidentally was the first ever bout between them, and the only one in juryo.

[Fay 1,677]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Don't know about yokozuna, but it's no good for forum posters.

I fear you could explain about Jikanmae about four other pages and a forum poster will desperately try to understand B-)

[Benevolance 2,534]

Given Toki has done so poorly against Hak, why not switch something up? It didn't work, obviously, but then Toki was put there as first-week fodder for the yokozuna, anyway.

I was more disappointed in the Hakuho/Chiyotairyu fight. I'd been anticipating that one since their pre-tournament practices - keenly interested to seeing how Chiyotairyu was beginning to stack up against some better opponents - and Hak basically side-stepped the issue. I'm guessing Chiyotairyu reinjured his shoulder in that bout? Is that the reason for his withdrawal? At least Aran got a win out of it... :-P

[Masumasumasu 902]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Don't know about yokozuna, but it's no good for forum posters.

I fear you could explain about Jikanmae about four other pages and a forum poster will desperately try to understand B-)

Hakuho has been desperate for quite some time. First it was the forearm knockouts of Myogiryu and Shohozan, then it was the henka on Chiyotairyu and now this jikan-mae nonsense. Tell me something, If mutual concent was reached, why was the gyoji confused?

I apologize if I have offended you, sir. 😉

[Tochinofuji 405]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Don't know about yokozuna, but it's no good for forum posters.

I fear you could explain about Jikanmae about four other pages and a forum poster will desperately try to understand B-)

Hakuho has been desperate for quite some time. First it was the forearm knockouts of Myogiryu and Shohozan, then it was the henka on Chiyotairyu and now this jikan-mae nonsense. Tell me something, If mutual concent was reached, why was the gyoji confused?

I apologize if I have offended you, sir.

Mutual consent of the rikishi being established doesn't entail a gyoji understanding that a jikan-mae is going to happen. The gyoji likely anticipated the usual course of affairs, and was caught off guard by the fact that mutual consent between the rikishi occurred before the expected time. Again, if it's Tokitenku that initiated the jikan-mae (which is what he apparently said), how can that be evidence of Hakuho being "desperate"?

Edited March 16, 2013 by Tochinofuji

[Masumasumasu 902]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Don't know about yokozuna, but it's no good for forum posters.

I fear you could explain about Jikanmae about four other pages and a forum poster will desperately try to understand B-)

Hakuho has been desperate for quite some time. First it was the forearm knockouts of Myogiryu and Shohozan, then it was the henka on Chiyotairyu and now this jikan-mae nonsense. Tell me something, If mutual concent was reached, why was the gyoji confused?

I apologize if I have offended you, sir.

Mutual consent of the rikishi being established doesn't entail a gyoji understanding that a jikan-mae is going to happen. The gyoji likely anticipated the usual course of affairs, and was caught off guard by the fact that mutual consent between the rikishi occurred before the expected time. Again, if it's Tokitenku that initiated the jikan-mae (which is what he apparently said), how can that be evidence of Hakuho being "desperate"?

I honestly don't think that Tokitenku was as sure as Hakuho that the jikan-mae was going to happen. Therein lies the problem in my opinion.

[Tochinofuji 405]

Is desperation considered to be a desirable trait for a Yokozuna?

Don't know about yokozuna, but it's no good for forum posters.

I fear you could explain about Jikanmae about four other pages and a forum poster will desperately try to understand B-)

Hakuho has been desperate for quite some time. First it was the forearm knockouts of Myogiryu and Shohozan, then it was the henka on Chiyotairyu and now this jikan-mae nonsense. Tell me something, If mutual concent was reached, why was the gyoji confused?

I apologize if I have offended you, sir.

Mutual consent of the rikishi being established doesn't entail a gyoji understanding that a jikan-mae is going to happen. The gyoji likely anticipated the usual course of affairs, and was caught off guard by the fact that mutual consent between the rikishi occurred before the expected time. Again, if it's Tokitenku that initiated the jikan-mae (which is what he apparently said), how can that be evidence of Hakuho being "desperate"?

I honestly don't think that Tokitenku was as sure as Hakuho that the jikan-mae was going to happen. Therein lies the problem in my opinion.

I think you may well be right on that front, though I suppose that's always the danger of being the initiator in something like a jikan-mae. While you can show that you're ready to go if they are, the ultimate decision to pull the trigger rests with the responding rikishi (in this case, Hakuho). Something that likely led to the strange looking tachi-ai, despite Tokitenku initiating it.

In my opinion, this basically amounts to the Yokozuna giving Toki the fight he (Toki) wanted, it just didn't work out well. That said, I can appreciate your frustration with the bout as a whole.

[Treblemaker 254]

Normally, Hak puts two fists down in the usual run-up before the final tachi-ai... And Tenku never really goes one-fist down and leans forward unless "it's time"...

Understanding that the bout can start at any time, as long as both parties are willing, and if it really was Tenku's idea, then maybe he picked the wrong guy. Interesting bout, but would love the idea of two guys starting at any point.

And about Hak being desperate? Really? Tiger Woods is more desperate. Vladimir Putin is extremely desperate. Sidney Crosby is horribly desperate. Heck, even I'm incredibly desperate. Fay is hugely desperate. and the most desperate of all is Kintamayama. He's fretting up a storm, worrying about bass-ics and whining a desperate tune somewhere in the Western Hemisphere!

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

As Gernobono mentioned above, Kitazakura often tried to get a jikan-mae going, but he had very few takers. It is rarely seen now, but it was not that unusual back in the 70's when I started watching.

and don't forget this fight between Maegashira Akebono and Komusubi Takahanada...

Nagoya 1991 Day 9 ;-)

[ALAKTORN 346]

Harumafuji gave out his 3rd kinboshi of the basho. Wow.

[Akinomaki 41,721]

Shukun-sho for Toyonoshima, kyujo for HF, yusho for Hak - seems sealed.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Akinomaki

[ALAKTORN 346]

1. The most likely reason is that there is an unwritten "dead man's rule" that when one rikishi has been pushed completely outside the bales but hasn't actually touched and the other rikishi touches first the aggressor is awarded the victory. No one would really want to see a rikishi who was hurled three rows into the audience in the air "win" because the motion of the throw causes the initiator to touch first. I knew there was no way that Oiwato was going to win that bout (but wouldn't have been shocked if there had been a mono and rematch). So that "rule" may have been the reason.

I agree with that interpretation; textbook example of the shinitai rule being applied, IMHO. Mono-ii are rather rare in these situations and usually imply that there was no clear aggressor.

I didn’t quite understand this when you posted it, I think you should use an hyphen at least (shini-tai) because otherwise it sounds like the conjugation of shinu to make “wanting to die” instead of the separate words “dead” and “body”.

[Asashosakari 20,209]

I didn’t quite understand this when you posted it, I think you should use an hyphen at least (shini-tai) because otherwise it sounds like the conjugation of shinu to make “wanting to die” instead of the separate words “dead” and “body”.

This is a sumo forum mainly in English; Japanese words posted here should be assumed to be sumo jargon, not any other possible Japanese homonym. Edited March 17, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Washuyama 662]

Just a reminder, folks...