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Nagoya 2019 Discussion (here be spoilers)

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14 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

All the more impressive that Kakuryu was able to achieve the rank of Yokozuna despite belonging to such a small, indifferently run Heya. 

What I find slightly mistifying, is that Izutsu is run by ex-Sakahoko, who is the elder brother of ex-Terao, the boss of Shikoroyama beya, which appears to be one of the larger and better run stables.

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4 hours ago, ryafuji said:

It's been a steady decline over a number of years. Back in the 1980s they had five in makuuchi simultaneously (Sakahoko, Terao, Kirishima, Jingaku and Sasshunada, since you ask). There doesn't seem to be much effort at recruitment - I remember an interview with Izutsu Oyakata in which he said it was difficult because "there are so many heya nowadays." 

http://www.sumo-webpaper.de/Interviews/Izutsu/Izutsu Oyakata.htm

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5 hours ago, Sakura said:

That's not how I read that. Under the DB, the blank owner slot on the right suggests that the Izutsu kabu is owned by the current holder.

Compare with the Kasugayama kabu owned by Ikioi.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Kabu.aspx?kabu=32

Then his name should be in the right column, too.

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19 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Then his name should be in the right column, too.

Maybe, but that's not how the DB does it. Looking at Kisenosato's Kabu we can see all the times he lent it out. He was listed as owner, even though the holder was someone else. Now that he is actually holding his kabu, he's not listed in the owner column.

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There is no doubt Izutsu owns his kabu.

The only case the "Owner" column is filled is when the "Holder" column is either "vacant" or another rikishi (loan).

In all other cases, the holder is obviously also the owner.

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Ok, then i read that wrong, my bad.

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On 22/07/2019 at 20:16, MrGrumpyGills said:

I'm not a fan of his per se, but Abi is one of the young rikishi I'm following. He's likable, at least to me, and I think there's still potential to grow. While he can be overeager and has some balance issues, he also has a lot of energy and speed, and I usually enjoy watching his frantic bouts.

As for the henka he used against Kotoshōgiku, I don't mind it one bit, even though I usually can't stand henka'ing. However, this isn't the first time Kotoshōgiku lost an important match in this way (Haru 2017, vs. Terunofuji comes to mind) and yet he seemingly refuses to address this weakness and keeps rushing in blindly. So it was a perfectly fine way to win in my book.

Having said that, at first I was quite disappointed with the way this basho evolved, but that changed in the last few days, which were very entertaining. The yusho race was open until the last day and decided in an absolutely satisfying showdown between Hakuhō and Kakuryū. As for many, THE match of the basho for me was Endō vs. Hokutofuji. I don't even like Endō that much, but his balance and footwork are out of this world.

Kotoshōgiku really is a straight forward rikishi with a very simplistic approach to Sumo. You could watch every match of him against Hakuho and he pretty much loses the same way every time, of course by some kind of throw.

I don't blame Abi either, he knew he would make some people angry but a 8-7 KK in his first san'yaku showing is certainly a reason "to play it safe" and get the easy win.

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Posted (edited)

A Top 10 Update for Nagoya 2019, part 1:

- While he has a ways to go, Kakuryu has won his 6th yusho, which is 5 behind 10th place Akebono. Miracle on the dohyo anyone?
- Hakuho extends the jun-yusho record to 22 second place finishes in the yusho race
- Hakuho extends the all time wins record to 1132. One has to wonder how long it is going to take him to get to 1200. Time is starting to weigh in on the GOAT
- Hakuho extends the all time makuuchi wins record to 1038. Same thing as above, how long to 1100 makuuchi wins?
- Makuuchi wins list watch: Kotoshogiku at 682 wins now, which is 15 behind 10th place Kyokutenho. Kakuryu at 628
- Shiraishi's win streak from debut ended at 10, losing on day 7
- Kawabuchi's win streak from debut ended at 7, losing on day 2
- The Naruto trio of Motobayashi, Sakurai, and Marusho have 7 wins to begin their pro debuts. Will one of them get a 7-0 in jonidan next basho?
- Hakuho extends the all time yokozuna wins record to 844. Counting the days to 900
- Kakuryu has 249 yokozuna wins, which is 42 behind 10th place Tochinishiki. Will he be able to get into that list after Harumafuji almost made it?
- Aminishiki's final career bouts tally is 1805, which puts him at 3rd place in the all time list. Given that Yoshikaze now has the highest for active wrestlers at 1288, it's going to be a long, long time before any updates come to this list
- Aminishiki's final makuuchi bouts tally is 1399, which puts him at 4th place in the all time list for the top division. 
- Kotoshogiku has 1246 makuuchi bouts, which puts him in 9th place. This puts him 11 behind 8th place Takekaze
- Hakuho has 1219 makuuchi bouts. This puts him 2 behind 10th place Kirinji. 2 bouts competed in Aki will get him into the list and also as the only yokozuna on the list as well
- Tamawashi has 1196 consecutive career matches. This puts him 67 matches behind 10th place Hachiya. Tamawashi must compete through to day 7 of Natsu 2020 to tie Hachiya for 10th place
- Hakuho extends to yokozuna bouts record to 956
- Kakuryu has 345 yokozuna bouts, which is 43 behind his contemporary Harumafuji in 10th place
- Hakuho and Kotoshogiku met for the 63rd time in their rivalry, with Kotoshogiku pulling off the upset. This puts them 3 behind the Kotoshogiku vs Kisenosato rivalry
- Hakuho and Kakuryu have faced each other 51 times. One more match will get them into the top 10 for most bouts between 2 rikishi

Edited by WAKATAKE
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Posted (edited)
On 23/07/2019 at 01:43, Getayukata said:

What I find slightly mistifying, is that Izutsu is run by ex-Sakahoko, who is the elder brother of ex-Terao, the boss of Shikoroyama beya, which appears to be one of the larger and better run stables.

I don't have hard numbers on it, but heya declining as the shisho approaches his retirement date (let's say, from about early 50s age onward) appears to be a relatively common phenomenon, especially in stables that have no affiliated oyakata or only ones who are similarly getting old. Sakahoko's been shisho since he was only 32 years old, 25 years ago now; Terao may be only a couple of years younger, but he didn't even quit his active career until he was nearly 40, and the stable is only at 15 years of existence. So I'd mostly chalk that up to still-greater motivation on Terao's part.

I kind of expect Shikoroyama-beya to be merged into Izutsu-beya (for the greater kabu name value) soon after Kakuryu's career is over, unless Kakuryu himself has designs on staying in Ozumo.


(Disclaimer: I'm mostly defining "decline" as an ever-dwindling number of stable members here, not necessarily mere lack of success in bringing up new sekitori.)

Edited by Asashosakari
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Top 10 Update for Nagoya 2019, part 2:

- Aminishiki's final basho tally for makuuchi was 97, tied for 3rd place with Takamiyama
- Hakuho was ranked on the banzuke in makuuchi for the 91st time, tying 6th place Kotonowaka. Above him at 93 is 5th place Terao. Hakuho remains the only yokozuna to be in this top 10 list
- Kotoshogiku was ranked on the banzuke in makuuchi for the 86th time, tying 10th place Takekaze. Above him at 87 basho is 9th place Wakanosato
- Hakuho extends the yokozuna basho record to 72
- Kakuryu was ranked as yokozuna for the 32nd time, tying 10th place Chiyonoyama and entering into the top 10 list, eclipsing Harumafuji who retired at 31 basho. Above Kakuryu at 42 basho is 9th place Asashoryu
- Goeido was ranked as ozeki for the 29th time, which is 3 short of the 3 way tie at 10th place featuring Kotozakura, Musashimaru, and Kotoshogiku. Since  Goeido will be kadoban next basho, he needs to be kachikoshi next basho to guarantee himself getting to 32 in Hatsu 2020
- Aminishiki's final tally as sekitori on the banzuke was 117, which is a tie in 1st place with Kaio
- Hanakaze was ranked on the banzuke for the 200th time, further extending the all time basho record
- Tenichi and Terunosato were ranked on the banzuke for the 158th time, above them at 159 basho are Kasachikara and Koriyama in a 5th place tie
- Aminishiki's final kinboshi tally was 8, which is 1 short of a 5 way tie in 10th place featuring Mitsuneyama, Tamanoumi, Hasegawa, Fujizakura, and Takatoriki
- Ichinojo on the other hand after upsetting Hakuho this basho received his 8th kinboshi, and given that he will not be in sanyaku next basho, has a chance to break into that top 10 in Aki
- Ryuden in his komusubi debut "enters" into the top 10 for slowest rise to sanyaku, in 10th place at 79 basho. His debut was Haru 2006
- Mitakeumi was ranked in sanyaku (sekiwake and komusubi) for the 15th consecutive basho, surpassing the trio of Kaio, Kotomitsuki, and Goeido and now in 2nd place all by himself. Given that he finished kachikoshi as sekiwake in Nagoya, he will be ranked a 16th time in Aki. At 1st place with 19th basho is Wakanosato

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I disbelieved you about Mitakeumi. But I looked it up and it's true. This kid had seriously better get his crap together or else I'm going to start a Mitakeumi fan club. 

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What is Hanakaze made of? Or more importantly, what inspires him to keep going despite never breaking through sandanme? Especially considering his career high was 16 years ago.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Taikoubana said:

What is Hanakaze made of? Or more importantly, what inspires him to keep going despite never breaking through sandanme? Especially considering his career high was 16 years ago.

Maybe he just thinks he’s gone on too long in sumo to be able to start a second career. He’ll never be an Oyakata so once he’s off the dohyo, he’s out of sumo and will inevitably end up in a relatively uninspiring job as most ex-toriteki guys do. I think if you don’t get out of a job early enough, it becomes difficult to leave. Who’s hiring guys in their 40s with a limited skill set?

Not unlike a lot of people who fall into a job out of school and then realize a decade later they’re still there and it’s become their career by accident (yes, I suppose I’m one of them!) But maybe I’m just projecting.

Edited by Eikokurai
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There are the sewanin and wakaimonogashira roles, I have wondered if Hanakaze is eligible for/been offered one.

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I would think that if Hanakaze is continuing as a rikishi because of a lack of other career alternatives, that the heya koenkai would be able to find something for him.  That seems to be the common theme when the retirement threads discuss what they will do next.  He probably just likes being a rikishi. 

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5 hours ago, Taikoubana said:

What is Hanakaze made of? Or more importantly, what inspires him to keep going despite never breaking through sandanme? Especially considering his career high was 16 years ago.

He could also be the acting manager of the heya, in charge of logistics, cooking etc. like Ichinoya was back then at Takasago..

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I would think that if Hanakaze is continuing as a rikishi because of a lack of other career alternatives, that the heya koenkai would be able to find something for him.  That seems to be the common theme when the retirement threads discuss what they will do next.  He probably just likes being a rikishi. 

My point really was that other career opportunities probably aren’t going to be all that stimulating. We often hear of ex-rikishi in their 20s getting jobs in services, factories, etc. They’re not equipped to become salarymen or do anything which requires diverse skills. And at 49 I imagine Hanakaze is even more institutionalized than most. Being a rikishi is probably much more rewarding than going to work elsewhere, and as others have said, he might be able to get another job around the sumo world which doesn’t require a kabu.

(Nothing wrong with working in services or factories, of course, I’m just comparing such work to the life of a rikishi.)

Edited by Eikokurai

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Posted (edited)

I have a follow-up question to the above. Hanakaze is 49 and never spent even a day as a sekitori. That’s a long life spent not earning a salary so I assume that he’s unlikely to have much in the way of savings (at least for a man of his age). Given that he is also not far out from proper retirement, I’m wondering what problems he could face as a retired ex-non sekitori with not much in the bank and not many years to get some savings together before he’s not working at all. Does the NSK provide a pension or healthcare?

Edited by Eikokurai

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

He could also be the acting manager of the heya, in charge of logistics, cooking etc. like Ichinoya was back then at Takasago..

And he still is - also Hanakaze might be given a job as heya manager after he retires, so as long as he can compete, he also could stay active.

7 hours ago, Onibushou said:

There are the sewanin and wakaimonogashira roles, I have wondered if Hanakaze is eligible for/been offered one.

No rikishi can become that without reaching makushita. Sewanin often have not reached juryo, wakaimonogashira usually had been in juryo for several basho.

Edited by Akinomaki
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15 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

And he still is - also Hanakaze might be given a job as heya manager after he retires, so as long as he can compete, he also could stay active.

No rikishi can become that without reaching makushita. Sewanin often have not reached juryo, wakaimonogashira usually had been in juryo for several basho.

Is that another one of those arbitrary rules that doesn’t leave room for common sense? Hanakaze may or may not be a good candidate, or indeed even be interested, but at 49 he probably has plenty to teach those wakaimonos. To not be eligible after all these years simply for not reaching makushita is a bit silly. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Is that another one of those arbitrary rules that doesn’t leave room for common sense? Hanakaze may or may not be a good candidate, or indeed even be interested, but at 49 he probably has plenty to teach those wakaimonos. To not be eligible after all these years simply for not reaching makushita is a bit silly. 

That is regulated in article 68 of the NSK rules from Nov. 1976 http://goza.blog.shinobi.jp/寄附行為/

Spoiler

第六十八条
若者頭・世話人・呼出および床山の採用は、次による。(昭和五十一年一月一日改e)
若者頭・世人の新規採用は、引退した十枚目力士・幕下力士で適格と認められる者から行う。

Before that also lower ranked rikishi could become sewanin - wikipedia lists Mitsuwaka as such a case https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/世話人

I don't know when the last riksihi without sekitori experience became wakaimonogashira, wikipedia lists only Dewagasaki, but there could have been a later one https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/若者頭

Sewanin and wakaimonogashira get paid according to length of service time (article 81), up to about half of what a new oyakata gets

Spoiler

第八十一条
若者頭・世話人・呼出および床山に支給する給与は、月給制とし、当分次の通り定める。
昇給は、年一回とする。
若者頭・世話人給与(平成五年一月一日改正)
 
若者頭、世話人の給与は、本俸・手当とする。
 
本俸は、当分次の基準により、各人の能力・成績ならびに勤務状況に応じて、理事長が決定する。
勤  続 十 年 未 満 月  六〇、〇〇〇円より 一一〇、〇〇〇円未満
勤続十年 以上二十年未満 月 一一〇、〇〇〇円よリ 一七〇、〇〇〇円未満
勤続二十年以上三十年未満 月 一七〇、〇〇〇円よリ 二五〇、〇〇〇円未満
勤 続 三 十 年 以上 月 二五〇、〇〇〇円よリ 三六〇、〇〇〇円まで 
手当は、各人の能力・成績・勤務状況ならびに物価・社会状勢等を勘案し、理事長が決定する。 (平成七年一月一日改正)

 

Edited by Akinomaki
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4 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Is that another one of those arbitrary rules that doesn’t leave room for common sense? Hanakaze may or may not be a good candidate, or indeed even be interested, but at 49 he probably has plenty to teach those wakaimonos. To not be eligible after all these years simply for not reaching makushita is a bit silly. 

On a general note: the numbers of wakaimonogashira and sewanin are restricted to 8 and 13 respectively. Not only do you have to fulfill formal requirements to become one, you also need to have good timing and catch one of these posts when they get available (well, many things in Ozumo are about good timing, I guess).

Aside from Hanakaze, we currently have many long-serving rikishi in Makushita and below, who probably extend their careers without hope to aim for higher goals, but just to snatch one of these rare jobs.

That would most likely explain the longevity of guys like e.g. Yoshiazuma, Kaonishiki, Dairaido, or Hitenryu (who seems to be in line to stick with the NSK) for wakaimonogashira or Shoketsu, Fujinokaze, Musashiumi, Gorikiyama, Tenichi or Kasugakuni for sewanin.

In fact, within the next five years, serveral spots will open up ...

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Let me try again.  Here's a list of Sewanin and Wakimonogashira from the current website:

Sewanin

Shikona                        Heya                             born

Byakuhoyama             Nakagawa                   1955

Saisu                            Isegahama                  1956

Fukuryudake               Dewanoumi                 1959

Tochigeno                   Kasugano                    1965

Haguroumi                  Tatsunami                   1966

Ohidake                       Tamanoi                       1966

Mutsuhokkai               Isegahama                  1964

Aranonami                  Fujishima                     1969

Torafusuyama            Kasugano                    1971

Ranbo                          Chiganoura                  1972

Tochinoyama             Chiganoura                  1973

Nishikikaze                 Oguruma                      1978

                                               

Wakaimonogashira

Shikona                        Heya                             born

Kotochitose                 Sadogatake                 1957

Shiraiwa                       Asakayama                  1957

Iyozakura                     Takasago                      1961

Fukunosato                  Michinoku                    1961

Hananokuni                 Shibatayama                1959

Zenshinyama              Takadagawa                 1966

Tochinofuji                  Kasugano                      1969

 

 

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3 hours ago, Raishu said:

On a general note: the numbers of wakaimonogashira and sewanin are restricted to 8 and 13 respectively. Not only do you have to fulfill formal requirements to become one, you also need to have good timing and catch one of these posts when they get available (well, many things in Ozumo are about good timing, I guess).

Aside from Hanakaze, we currently have many long-serving rikishi in Makushita and below, who probably extend their careers without hope to aim for higher goals, but just to snatch one of these rare jobs.

That would most likely explain the longevity of guys like e.g. Yoshiazuma, Kaonishiki, Dairaido, or Hitenryu (who seems to be in line to stick with the NSK) for wakaimonogashira or Shoketsu, Fujinokaze, Musashiumi, Gorikiyama, Tenichi or Kasugakuni for sewanin.

In fact, within the next five years, serveral spots will open up ...

 

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Congrats to the Kakman! Now the "not worthy yokozuna" its three times better than ex-kise...Great bout against Hakuho! (Dohyo-iri...)

 

 

 

Ps*yaay Enho!

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