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Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

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Posted (edited)

If the immediately available video evidence is inconclusive, you have to go with the opinion of the shimpan who was closest.  It may seem like a travesty given the other photos available, as well as the fact that there's no real reason why they can't just postpone a decision until better evidence is forthcoming since nothing immediately hinges on that result unlike in team sports, but really, if they are allowed to use photographs that are published an hour later or the next day, where does it end?  You have to use the evidence available, and there's no rule of having the initial decision stand when the gyoji can be overruled much much easier than other sports officials, and is more of a ceremonial figure while the shimpan really judge the winner.  And in this case, again, you have to go with the opinion of whoever was closest.

And even if he had won the bout, Tochinoshin has been looking less like an Ozeki these last three matches.  I would say that regardless of whether he gets repromoted or not, he will likely* suffer back-to-back MKs within 9 basho, or by Kyushu 2020.  I'm not even doing this by calculation like I might normally, but by a gut feeling. If he's an Ozeki those 9 basho he earns a bit more money and still has his own parking spot (I don't understand this perk of being an Ozeki, given that rikishi can't drive.  Why do you need a parking spot if someone can just drop you off in the same place?  The perk is more like "gets to enter the arena more stealthily than most rikishi"), but nothing really changes.  He might be good enough to beat almost everyone when he's on, but he seems to be running out of steam.  He might win another Yusho, but I don't see him winning two in a row, so it won't matter what his rank is other than a bit more cash.

*If it doesn't happen, that doesn't mean "I was wrong".  I'm saying it's likely to happen, not that it will.

Edited by Gurowake

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Today's match it's already one of the defining matches of the century. In my opinion, it was not a robbery, it was a mere example of not using the technology available while relying in intuition. We have witnessed the incompetence of Onomatsu and I demand his resignation. 

Having said that, Tochinoshin shouldn't have been in a situation like this. As soon as he got nine wins he has stopped to attack and started to rely on pulling and stepping back. He must recover his Ozeki rank proving that he deserves it and I still think he can.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Yukiarashi said:

D7UxuxuU8AMImDi.jpg

I thought Tochinoshin may have been screwed too, but after looking at this picture there is a mark on the outside of the ring approximately two inches from the bottom tip of his sagari to the left. It does look farther over from where his heel was in picture one, but judging by the dirt in the corner of the dohyo it is a slightly different angle. 

That supposed mark is not where his heel went down, and it is not hard to see. Look at the straw bales, you can see where that supposed mark is in the 2nd pic vs the first. It is just a shadow.

Edited by Rigel

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11 minutes ago, Kotomiyama said:

Today's match it's already one of the defining matches of the century. In my opinion, it was not a robbery, it was a mere example of not using the technology available while relying in intuition. We have witnessed the incompetence of Onomatsu and I demand his resignation. 

Having said that, Tochinoshin shouldn't have been in a situation like this. As soon as he got nine wins he has stopped to attack and started to rely on pulling and stepping back. He must recover his Ozeki rank proving that he deserves it and I still think he can.

Yeah, thats where I am at now. I don't buy into the conspiracy theories at all (we can hear a lot of the shimpan argument which is rare in sports), and I don't think this was a "robbery" as in the officials were trying to steal anything. This was the result of a bad replay system and 5-6 old men trying to remember what they saw in their old eyes 5 minutes ago.

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WTF? Absolutely unfair. VTNC!

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Well, I suppose that all involved can hope that Tochinoshin simply (though likely not easily) secures his 10th win over the weekend and seals his return to ozeki.  Failing that, given the botched call I would say the thing to do as the Kyokai would be to simply re-promote him at any rate.  As I understand it, promotion to ozeki is discretionary.  While that discretion is generally exercised after a wrestler wins 33 or more matches over three tournaments while ranked at sekiwake, or winning 10 matches after being demoted to sekiwake, is there anything (aside from lack of precedent) stopping the Association of exercising its discretion to bump him up to ozeki? He's kachikoshi at sekiwake and has likely proved he should be ranked at ozeki with what should have been a 10th win.

Entirely the pipedream of an aggrieved fan, I appreciate, but hey, one can always fantasize about some justice in the world.

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From the interviews we have, it is beginning to sound like the video room guys focused only on the frames with heel near sand and not on the more telling frames with sand undisturbed after the heel exited the scene.  I really don't buy the tachiai article's assertion that some touches don't move any sand and other non-touches do move sand.  If that is true, why bother having the sand at all?  And why is the sand outside about 5mm higher than the level of the clay/dirt/salt inside?

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

If the immediately available video evidence is inconclusive, you have to go with the opinion of the shimpan who was closest.  It may seem like a travesty given the other photos available, as well as the fact that there's no real reason why they can't just postpone a decision until better evidence is forthcoming since nothing immediately hinges on that result unlike in team sports, but really, if they are allowed to use photographs that are published an hour later or the next day, where does it end?  You have to use the evidence available, and there's no rule of having the initial decision stand when the gyoji can be overruled much much easier than other sports officials, and is more of a ceremonial figure while the shimpan really judge the winner.  And in this case, again, you have to go with the opinion of whoever was closest.

I would dispute the idea the shimpan is any closer than the gyoji here or had a better view. Even if he was I would ask why the decision of one lone shimpan should stand over the gyoji's when there is no video which suggests the gyoji is wrong? Why should one shimpan's opinion by itself overrule a call? A call made by a person who spent the first 15 years of his sumo career judging matches, unlike the shimpan. The use of video evidence came into effect because 6 people got a call blatantly wrong. But suddenly ONE sole shimpan's judgement is law simply because the video can't conclusively show he's wrong? A gyoji is subject to possible fines, suspension or even resignations for having a call overruled.  At the very least he suffers a loss of face. What is hanging over the shimpan here? Nothing. As long as you can't show he's wrong, he's gold. One guy.

That is a recipe for corruption and disaster. If there is actual evidence; video, marks in the sand, MULTIPLE people stating they think he got it wrong. Fine, overrule him. Otherwise the initial call should stand considering the person doing it was hired, trained and tasked his entire sumo career to do that.

tochiasano.jpg

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Katooshu said:

I'm not sure where the mark is you are referring to.

I don't see any new marking in the area where Tochinoshin's heel was. Also look at the circular speck an inch or two behind his heel and to the right in the first picture--there is nothing new an inch or two around it in the second.

It's possible as well that his left foot being dragged and sharply turning kicked some stuff up, but I don't see the mark around the heel.

It's a very faint darker spot. It might be a shadow as others have noted but it is circular and lighter than other shadows. Still very far from conclusive even if it wasn't a shadow. If you follow the brown dirt strip closest to the bales within the red circle there's a slightly darker shade of sand.. I don't know. Given some of the pictures I am amazed Tochi's foot didn't appear to hit the ground given how close it was, but at the same time there hasn't been any proof of his foot touching the outside. 

(Not very helpful, I know.)

I think even a hansoku hairpull call might have been less controversial. 

Edited by Yukiarashi

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I hope that members of the shimpan on duty in the second half of the Top Division bouts release to the press how they came to their decision.  Perhaps someone on the Forum will spot something in the Japanese press.  I'll keep my eyes open, but my eyesight is not great. ;-)

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5 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

I hope that members of the shimpan on duty in the second half of the Top Division bouts release to the press how they came to their decision.  Perhaps someone on the Forum will spot something in the Japanese press.  I'll keep my eyes open, but my eyesight is not great. ;-)

This post at Tachai.org refers to an article about it. 

https://tachiai.org/2019/05/24/decisions-decisions-2/comment-page-1/#comments

 

Apparently Hanaregoma oyakata raised his hand and stated he saw the touch. After review came back saying they saw no touch or evidence of it Hanaregoma oyakata was asked if he stood by his call and he said he did, but offered they should all vote on it. A very obvious and practical conclusion. Hanaregoma oyakata probably offered this as he expected the other judges to vote they saw nothing meaning he would be overruled. A logical thing to do considering the video did not support his call.  Inexplicably Onomatsu oyakata overrules this very obvious and supportable action and decides Hanaregoma alone should call this and goes with Tochinoshin touched. Bypassing the entire point of having video review and 5 judges to begin with. Lunacy on the part of Onomatsu. 

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If tochinoshin finishes 9-6 at this point, that would actually be compelling evidence (after day 13 anyway) that the sumo association has no influence whatsoever on the results of matches. They obviously cant ask Kakuryu to throw his match, but what about day 15? (Beingninja...)

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Rocks said:

This post at Tachai.org refers to an article about it. 

https://tachiai.org/2019/05/24/decisions-decisions-2/comment-page-1/#comments

 

Apparently Hanaregoma oyakata raised his hand and stated he saw the touch. After review came back saying they saw no touch or evidence of it Hanaregoma oyakata was asked if he stood by his call and he said he did, but offered they should all vote on it. A very obvious and practical conclusion. Hanaregoma oyakata probably offered this as he expected the other judges to vote they saw nothing meaning he would be overruled. A logical thing to do considering the video did not support his call.  Inexplicably Onomatsu oyakata overrules this very obvious and supportable action and decides Hanaregoma alone should call this and goes with Tochinoshin touched. Bypassing the entire point of having video review and 5 judges to begin with. Lunacy on the part of Onomatsu. 

The videos and pictures in the tachiai post are the best angles I've seen. It can't get closer than that. This just sounds ridiculous though how the decision was made. 

Edited by Yukiarashi

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While I'm not happy about it, I am in the camp that the judges got it right.  Tochinoshin's heel sure looks out to me.

 

 

touch.jpg

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1 minute ago, K. Sear said:

While I'm not happy about it, I am in the camp that the judges got it right.  Tochinoshin's heel sure looks out to me.

 

 

touch.jpg

Doctored image.

Officer Jenny is a CIA asset.

Google USS Liberty.

 

EEEEEEEYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

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I'm always surprised that the Shimpan don't ever seem to go and look at the sand around the edge of the ring while having a monoii, particularly on calls like this one.  Surely the physical evidence is at least worth considering.

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Posted (edited)

As much as I'm rooting for Tochinoshin to regain his Ozeki rank and believe he was robbed of a win vs. Asanoyama, if he's unable to to secure just one additional win following a 9-1 start that included a fusensho, he'll have only himself to blame.  

Edited by Kaninoyama

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7 minutes ago, K. Sear said:

While I'm not happy about it, I am in the camp that the judges got it right.  Tochinoshin's heel sure looks out to me.

 

 

touch.jpg

This was the picture. I don't think I've ever seen something as close as this was. I fault the judges for the sloppiness of the decision making, but at the same time it's impossible to know for sure he's not out here.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Yukiarashi said:

This was the picture. I don't think I've ever seen something as close as this was. I fault the judges for the sloppiness of the decision making, but at the same time it's impossible to know for sure he's not out here.

Yeah, I spotted this frame on the videos early today and it made me believe he was out.  Then I came here and was surprised to see that no one posted it and only Tachiai.org seems to be talking about it.  Everyone is so adamant that Tochinoshin wasn't out, he was robbed, the judges should be fired, but I have no idea how they can be so sure when this shot is out there.

Edited by K. Sear

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15 minutes ago, Yukiarashi said:

This was the picture. I don't think I've ever seen something as close as this was. I fault the judges for the sloppiness of the decision making, but at the same time it's impossible to know for sure he's not out here.

It's not impossible. If Tochinoshin's heel touched down there would be a mark left in the sand. No such mark exists. Therefore, Tochinoshin was not out. Bad call.

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4 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

It's not impossible. If Tochinoshin's heel touched down there would be a mark left in the sand. No such mark exists. Therefore, Tochinoshin was not out. Bad call.

As already discussed on tachai.org, a light enough touch would not leave a discernible mark.  A mark proves a touch, but lack of a mark does not disprove a touch.

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6 minutes ago, K. Sear said:

As already discussed on tachai.org, a light enough touch would not leave a discernible mark.  A mark proves a touch, but lack of a mark does not disprove a touch.

I ran on a not-very-scientific experiment in my son’s sandbox just now, and even touching very lightly I still disturbed the sand. That was with a finger with no body weight on it. One has to think that a heel on a man like Tochinoshin would leave some visible sign of contact, even with most of his body weight on his toes and other leg.

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1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

I ran on a not-very-scientific experiment in my son’s sandbox just now, and even touching very lightly I still disturbed the sand. That was with a finger with no body weight on it. One has to think that a heel on a man like Tochinoshin would leave some visible sign of contact, even with most of his body weight on his toes and other leg.

2001: Can jet fuel melt steel beams?

2019: Can Georgian heels disturb sand?

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12 minutes ago, K. Sear said:

Yeah, I spotted this frame on the videos early today and it made me believe he was out.  Then I came here and was surprised to see that no one posted it and only Tachiai.org seems to be talking about it.  Everyone is so adamant that Tochinoshin wasn't out, he was robbed, the judges should be fired, but I have no idea how they can be so sure when this shot is out there.

For me this picture is irrelevant.  Basically all the video and pictures are irrelevant. Why? They are inconclusive.  Some can be found to argue either way. Although I would definitely argue there is no picture or video which shows conclusively his heel touched. Minus that the gyoji's call should stand. That is why Tochinoshin was robbed. He did what he needed to do to win.  He got the call. they even reviewed it. No one can conclusively disprove that call. The win is his. To take it away from him is to rob him of it. 

 

How many closes matches have been argued where it suggests the gyoji got it wrong AND no monoii was called?  Countless. Remember Hakuho standing by the dohyo attempting to will the judges to make a review? What is the real issue in those calls? That the call stands without  a video review which they think shows the gyoji got it wrong. If they had done the review and the booth said "Sorry, we can't see anything which shows the gyoji was wrong." I doubt there would be many saying  "But one of the shimpan agreed with us." But now that such idiocy has happened others appeal to custom and tradition to suggest it isn't ridiculous. I am sure they all would have said if Hakuho got his review and it was inconclusive that because one of the shimpan agreed with Hakuho changing the call to a win for him over Yoshikaze was peachy keen. After all Hakuho is the GOAT and if you want to beat the GOAT you need to do so conclusively. 

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This notion that a huge man can touch a sandbox and not make any kind of mark is one that just needs to go away.  If this all comes down to asserting that Tochinoshin has that sort of skill, he should be awarded the Ozeki rank immediately.

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