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Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

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6 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

 Asanoyama warranted a lose even more. I haven't seen any evidence showing Tochinoshin out (whereas yama did a nice big flop) and I don't see how he should be the loser there, regardless of what someone who is truly an ozeki should be expected to do, or any considerations that go beyond the question of whether his heel was out or not.

Also true. It seems that a call for gunbai-dori would have baffled nobody, contrary to the mess we now have.

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18 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Asanoyama warranted a loss even more. I haven't seen any evidence showing Tochinoshin out (whereas yama did a nice big flop) and I don't see how he should be the loser there, regardless of what someone who is truly an ozeki should be expected to do, or any considerations that go beyond the question of whether his heel was out or not. Besides, in an explosive sport confined to a very small regulation area, a lot of wins are going to be a matter of inches and centimeters; it doesn't make them illegitimate, and 'true' ozeki/yokozuna still have plenty of them. 

Are you saying that even if Tochi's foot actually touched outside (something still for discussion), he should be given the win anyway?

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Not at all. Where do you think I suggested that?

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There are 6 rikishi with a mathematical chance of winning the yusho.

M8w Asanoyama (11-2)  v  O1e Goeido (9-4)

Y1w Kakuryu (10-3)  v  S1w Tochinoshin (9-4)

M3w Tamawashi (9-4)  v  M15w Kotoeko (8-5)

M7w Meisei (9-4)  v  M4w Abi (8-5)

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M8w Asanoyama (11-2) controls his own destiny. If he wins out, he will be 13-2 and win the yusho.

Y1w Kakuryu (10-3) also controls his own destiny. If he wins out, he will be 12-3. That wins the yusho, if Asanoyama loses to Goeido. Or forces a playoff, if Asanoyama beats Goeido. (This assumes that Kakuryu will face Asanoyama on Day 15.)

There is also the possibility of the yusho winner being 11-4. This could entail a multi way playoff.

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All in for Kakuryu. I was really hoping Tochinoshin would win today both for his own sake and to give Asanoyama a loss and Kakuryu a chance to pull ahead.

Alas, the best laid plans of mice and men...

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3 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

M8w Asanoyama (11-2) controls his own destiny. If he wins out, he will be 13-2 and win the yusho.

Y1w Kakuryu (10-3) also controls his own destiny. If he wins out, he will be 12-3. That wins the yusho, if Asanoyama loses to Goeido. Or forces a playoff, if Asanoyama beats Goeido. (This assumes that Kakuryu will face Asanoyama on Day 15.)

There is also the possibility of the yusho winner being 11-4. This could entail a multi way playoff.

I'm all for as big of a playoff as possible (Clappingwildly...)

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Amidst all the confusion at the top of the banzuke, I will be watching the results of a Day 14 matchup in the Makushita Division.  Takaranofuji secured the championship today, but Hoshoryu (Asashoryu's nephew and according to the intrepid John Gunning a potential future star https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2019/05/24/sumo/sumo-101-mongolians/#.XOg-my2B2fe) will be going up against a taller, heavier, and more-experienced Kizenryu.  Both men have 3-3 records.  Only one of them will walk away with a KK.   It is still questionable whether a KK would propel either man up into the Juryo Division in Nagoya.  But up is usually better than down.  The 20 year-old Hoshoryu seems to be on his way up, whereas the 34 year-old Kizenryu seems to be nearing the end of his lengthy career (i.e., down?).

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Did they hire FIFA referees for that bout?? That's one of the worst calls I've ever seen.

 

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After reading the fuller explanation on tachiai, I'm a little more sympathetic to the shimpan. If there's anyone to blame its either the replay technology, or the replay officials for being too timid or untrained to quickly make and argue the best call.

The head shimpan asked the replay guys what they saw and he got a big fat shrug in return, so the replay guys were no help to him. "The ruling on the field must stand" is not a thing in Japan. Maybe it should be, but it isn't, if a shimpan said he saw something the gyoji didn't, they have to go with that. The guy who said he saw the heel touch suggested maybe they vote on it, but the others told him, no we didn't see anything, we can't vote, you must call it now.

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40 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Amidst all the confusion at the top of the banzuke, I will be watching the results of a Day 14 matchup in the Makushita Division.  Takaranofuji secured the championship today, but Hoshoryu (Asashoryu's nephew and according to the intrepid John Gunning a potential future star https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2019/05/24/sumo/sumo-101-mongolians/#.XOg-my2B2fe) will be going up against a taller, heavier, and more-experienced Kizenryu.  Both men have 3-3 records.  Only one of them will walk away with a KK.   It is still questionable whether a KK would propel either man up into the Juryo Division in Nagoya.  But up is usually better than down.  The 20 year-old Hoshoryu seems to be on his way up, whereas the 34 year-old Kizenryu seems to be nearing the end of his lengthy career (i.e., down?).

Given my track record when I make an open prediction I will probably be wrong as can be, but Kizenryu's upright style leaves him prone to one of Hoshoryu's trips and I'll call Hosh by one of those. 

Hoshoryu has impressive skills but I think he needs to add size and develop his conventional sumo techniques more. 

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5 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Given my track record when I make an open prediction I will probably be wrong as can be, but Kizenryu's upright style leaves him prone to one of Hoshoryu's trips and I'll call Hosh by one of those. 

Hoshoryu has impressive skills but I think he needs to add size and develop his conventional sumo techniques more. 

What I like about him is that he seems highly motivated (hungry, in other words).  

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I thought you could clearly see sand shoot up from Tochinoshin’s heel in the HD video. I also thought he had some of a hansoku going on there, so I’m not really that mad about the loss.

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Just now, ALAKTORN said:

I thought you could clearly see sand shoot up from Tochinoshin’s heel in the HD video. I also thought he had some of a hansoku going on there, so I’m not really that mad about the loss.

I would like to see video evidence to confirm Tochinoshin's heel touched down. I haven't seen it yet. There was no hansoku.

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10 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

I thought you could clearly see sand shoot up from Tochinoshin’s heel in the HD video. I also thought he had some of a hansoku going on there, so I’m not really that mad about the loss.

Tochinoshin's sagari hit the sand close to where his heel was, perhaps this is the sand you see. 

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Mr. Gould has a video on this, with some historical context. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrKrNEveL1I

I've watched the footage multiple times, from multiple angles and at varying qualities. I don't see Tochinoshin's heel touch in any of them. 

 

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5 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

Tochinoshin couldn't put a Maegashira out as an ozeki should? Straight away? Should an ozeki rely on video evidence and shrill nobheads on social media?

Tochinoshin will show he is an ozeki tomorrow, or possibly on Sunday. If he doesn't he isn't an ozeki.

That’s not how sumo works. Kakuryu has given up two kinboshi this basho. Is he not a Yokozuna because he couldn’t best two maegashira? Sumo is a sport of the finest margins. Even the best lose from time to time to surprise opponents. Moreover, Tochinoshin did beat Asanoyama anyway.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Rigel said:

After reading the fuller explanation on tachiai, I'm a little more sympathetic to the shimpan. If there's anyone to blame its either the replay technology, or the replay officials for being too timid or untrained to quickly make and argue the best call.

The head shimpan asked the replay guys what they saw and he got a big fat shrug in return, so the replay guys were no help to him. "The ruling on the field must stand" is not a thing in Japan. Maybe it should be, but it isn't, if a shimpan said he saw something the gyoji didn't, they have to go with that. The guy who said he saw the heel touch suggested maybe they vote on it, but the others told him, no we didn't see anything, we can't vote, you must call it now.

 Seems like a great review method....

Edited by Katooshu

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Posted (edited)

D7UxuxuU8AMImDi.jpg

I thought Tochinoshin may have been screwed too, but after looking at this picture there is a mark on the outside of the ring approximately two inches from the bottom tip of his sagari to the left. It does look farther over from where his heel was in picture one, but judging by the dirt in the corner of the dohyo it is a slightly different angle. 

Edit: Apologies for making this post sound conclusive, far from it in fact, but I'm still not 100% sure Tochi never touched out. 

Edited by Yukiarashi

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20 minutes ago, nelimw said:

Tochinoshin's sagari hit the sand close to where his heel was, perhaps this is the sand you see. 

No. I saw sand shoot up just after the heel went up and the sagari hit the sand. I could be wrong, but it’s not the sagari I saw.

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don't know if it was posted yet but this worth watching...

 

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50 minutes ago, Rigel said:

After reading the fuller explanation on tachiai, I'm a little more sympathetic to the shimpan. If there's anyone to blame its either the replay technology, or the replay officials for being too timid or untrained to quickly make and argue the best call.

The head shimpan asked the replay guys what they saw and he got a big fat shrug in return, so the replay guys were no help to him. "The ruling on the field must stand" is not a thing in Japan. Maybe it should be, but it isn't, if a shimpan said he saw something the gyoji didn't, they have to go with that. The guy who said he saw the heel touch suggested maybe they vote on it, but the others told him, no we didn't see anything, we can't vote, you must call it now.

Yeah, as tempting as it is to start with the conspiracy theories, I really do think it's a bad call made by an inadequate judging system. If Minato oyakata was convinced he saw Tochinoshin's foot go out, and no one was in a position to contradict him (although surely the gyoji had a clear view as well), then that's the decision they were going to go with. It's silly that all these shimpan were involved in the discussion when they had no idea what the situation was, and silly that the people who had access to the video replay were allowed to just throw up their hands and say they weren't sure. The other shimpan should have either pressed for more details (like asking the video booth guys 'did you see sand fly up with Tochinoshin's foot?') or been allowed to see replays for themselves.

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Just now, ALAKTORN said:

No. I saw sand shoot up just after the heel went up and the sagari hit the sand. I could be wrong, but it’s not the sagari I saw.

Any chance you could post a link to the video you saw? I'd be curious in seeing it..

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Yukiarashi said:

D7UxuxuU8AMImDi.jpg

I thought Tochinoshin may have been screwed too, but after looking at this picture there is a mark on the outside of the ring approximately two inches from the bottom tip of his sagari to the left. It does look farther over from where his heel was in picture one, but judging by the dirt in the corner of the dohyo it is a slightly different angle. 

I'm not sure where the mark is you are referring to.

I don't see any new marking in the area where Tochinoshin's heel was. Also look at the circular speck an inch or two behind his heel and to the right in the first picture--there is nothing new an inch or two around it in the second.

It's possible as well that his left foot being dragged and sharply turning kicked some stuff up, but I don't see the mark around the heel.

Edited by Katooshu
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6 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

I'm not sure where the mark is you are referring to. 

All I see is the shadow of Asanoyama falling.

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