Haru Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Amamaniac 2,079]

31 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

In addition to Akebono there was also Hokutoumi, who was closer to Takakeisho in size. He won 8 yusho and was mainly an oshi specialist (his trademark was nodowa).

Interesting comparison there.  I had to check:  Hokutoumi (i.e., Takanohana's best friend, Hakkaku) was listed as 181cm and 140kg.  Takakeisho, on the other hand, is 6 cm shorter and 30kg heavier.  Talk about packing a lot more weight into a smaller package.  Now, I appreciate all those stories about Takakeisho being force-fed as a child.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.  This is the kind of exchange for which I truly value the forum.

[Oortael 153]

Sunday I was thinking in let's say 3-4 years, if our yakozuna are Takakeisho and Ichinojo, how underwhelming the dohyo-iri ceremony will be.

[Asashosakari 19,688]

1 hour ago, ryafuji said:

In addition to Akebono there was also Hokutoumi, who was closer to Takakeisho in size. He won 8 yusho and was mainly an oshi specialist (his trademark was nodowa).

The main problem in finding good comparisons is that oshi-zumo really wasn't a major focus in sumo for the longest time, especially at the upper echelon. (One data point: Most oshidashi wins by rikishi ranked in sanyaku, 1958-1977 vs 1989-2008.) Height/weight-wise there are some decent analogues for Takakeisho's body type among yokozuna - Terukuni and Kagamisato in modern-ish times, going even further back the second Umegatani - but the typical way to make up for lack of height was superior yotsu skill and/or a greater technical repertoire in general.

Anyway, aside from Hokutoumi the most oshi-heavy pre-Heisei yokozuna were probably Sadanoumi and Kotozakura, although the latter seems to have been more of an all-rounder and only Sadanoyama really had a push/thrust focus. Like Hokutoumi quite a bit taller than Takakeisho though.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Asashosakari

[sahaven111 186]

1 hour ago, Oortael said:

Sunday I was thinking in let's say 3-4 years, if our yakozuna are Takakeisho and Ichinojo, how underwhelming the dohyo-iri ceremony will be.

sounds like a good joke. but i don't get it, really want to though. is it size?

[Rainoyama 1,157]

It's probably far from prefect as both my japanese and english are not perfect but I translated parts of the article @Akōgyokuseki provided and written by Araiso oyakata (Kisenosato) for those who can't read it and would like to know more details. If I made mistakes please feel free to correct me !

"What makes the most impression is Takakeisho's sumo. He disposed of Tochinoshin in a blink but the fact he could display power in the midst of the immense pressure of not reaching double digit wins had he lost is truly impressive. What supports Takakeisho's sumo is the strenth of his legs and hips, the power of his hips in particular" (Note : the japanese words he uses is 腰 koshi which has a broad meaning, it can mean lower back, waist, hips. It's a very important word in many martial arts as it refers to the part of the body that links the upper and lower body). It's been about a year since my first bout against him when I was active (Nagoya 17) and his impact was completely different. When the hips are settled, we also obtain a sense of stability"

"The rikishi who's power stood out is Ichinojo. (...) Quick tachi ai first step, also quick to set his both feet on the ground at the second step. Weither his opponents were going at him with oshi attacks or going for the belt he could absorb and resist anything (...) By feeling the impact he was able to strike just as the opponent moved. Ichinojo won 6 bouts by Hatakikomi and it has nothing to do with chance."

"Daiesho had a 7-8 makekoshi but defeated Takayasu and Goeido and the fact he suddenly came out with that power impressed me. His constant forward movement was great as well as his mindset. There are certainly power to his thrusting attack too. It appears that he'll be abble to face the yokozuna/ozeki again next basho and it's something I look forward to."

(...) "Takakeisho assured his promotion during the last basho of the Heisei era but there are certainly many young rikishi thinking "I'm next".  If one or two rikishi can emmerge as Takakeisho's rival(s) there are reasons to get excited even after we move to the new era"

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Rainoyama

[Oortael 153]

2 minutes ago, sahaven111 said:

sounds like a good joke. but i don't get it, really want to though. is it size?

It's not meant as a joke. When I watch Hakuho and Kisenosato do dohyo-iri, I feel the intensity. When I watch Takakeisho and Ichinojo, I feel like they go thru the motion with no emotions, and also they can barely raise their legs above their waiste. So yeah, I'm afraid it's going to be underwhelming compared to what we have today. Just a random thought.

[sahaven111 186]

2 minutes ago, Oortael said:

It's not meant as a joke. When I watch Hakuho and Kisenosato do dohyo-iri, I feel the intensity. When I watch Takakeisho and Ichinojo, I feel like they go thru the motion with no emotions, and also they can barely raise their legs above their waiste. So yeah, I'm afraid it's going to be underwhelming compared to what we have today. Just a random thought.

ah i see. this was my first basho, and i can already relate. i like to say "the sumo might be bad, but the numbers have the final say"

[Suwihuto 133]

13 hours ago, robnplunder said:

When I mentioned an option of ignore, I meant figuratively (just don't read or respond to certain folks' posts).     

 

This forum can use more newbies, and regular posters.   In the last 15 days of sumo, only a few people were posting while the bouts were "live."    Sometimes, it was just me or Eikokurai, with a few others coming in and out.  IIRC, there used to be more.   Then, until the next basho 6 weeks later, there will be only sporadic posts by limited number of posters.    I am member of other forums and this forum sometime strikes me as a league of their own (insiders, experts, long time sumo lovers, long time forum members). 

I'd love to post more, but I feel that 99% of the time, I know effectively nothing compared to most people here, so wouldn't be adding anything insightful. Doesn't stop me posting the occasional piece of nonsense though.

[Akōgyokuseki 228]

Many thanks @Rainoyama for the detailed translation, much appreciated my friend  

Edit: thanks @Asashosakariturns out my ad blocker in Firefox was blocking the pop up. Switched out to Chrome and it's perfect, thanks.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Akōgyokuseki

[Benevolance 2,511]

I've read that oshi-sumo specialists tend to use harite most often, but harite is fairly broadly "a strike with an open hand". So, like, ex-Harumafuji's wicked harite was that knock-out head-tap, while Takakeisho so far mostly is shoving the body. The YDC was pretty consistent whining about Harumafuji and Hakuho's swipes as 'unbecoming' of yokozuna; and in Harumafuji's case, when he acceded to the pressure, I feel they essentially took away one of his best weapons by denying him the slap. 

Is this likely something that Takakeisho has to look forward to IF he reaches yokozuna? Did any of the past oshi-sumo specialist yokozuna have to endure similar?

[Asashosakari 19,688]

7 minutes ago, Akōgyokuseki said:

Edit: hope your mention came through in my post...not sure how to do it...

Start typing the member's name and a popup should appear; you'll have to select the name from that list by clicking and the forum engine will add the required tag. Typing out the name in full by hand either doesn't work at all or is very flaky, in my experience.

[Asashosakari 19,688]

14 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Is this likely something that Takakeisho has to look forward to IF he reaches yokozuna? Did any of the past oshi-sumo specialist yokozuna have to endure similar?

I can only speculate, but I feel that would only be a potential problem later in his yokozuna career. If it's done well and successful, oshi-zumo is usually quite pleasing on the eye and demonstrates a great deal of "natural" superiority (see Takakeisho-Tochinoshin this basho), so I figure somebody who's putting up yokozuna-like win totals won't hear much about it from the YDC. It does get messy when oshi specialists are off form and they end up having to scratch and claw for their wins with evasion and uncoordinated pull downs, so it's probably not the greatest choice of yokozuna style when you're at the point in your career when your usual record is only 10-5 or 11-4.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Asashosakari

[Benihana 1,937]

1) Daishoho - potential

2) Kotoeko - too small

3) Ishiura - too small

4) Toyoshima - too old

5) Terutsuyoshi - too small

6) Tomokaze - great potential

7) Meisei - potential

8) Yago - potential

9) Onosho - great potential

10) Enho - too small. 10-15 cm in height and maybe a bit stronger frame and he could be the next Chiyonofuji. This really bugs me, because his technical skills deserve him to go there.

Those guys with potential...mmmmhyeah, i don't know. There IS potential without any doubt, but at the moment all of them are a good bit away from pushing the button that unleashes that potential. One or two will definitely rise to Ozeki, baring injury. I fear most of them will go the way of Endo/Shodai. You KNOW they could, but something is holding them back.

[Rocks 1,809]

4 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

The wild card in my view is Ichinojo.  He has rediscovered his best weapon: hatakikomi.  He used it perfectly against six opponents in the latest tournament, and Takakeisho was one of them.  Sadly, Ichinojo will probably be pressured to stop using that very technique.  It is bad for sumo, in a way.

I wonder if they will. if an opponent refuses to take the belt Ichinojo freely gives them access too it's a little hard to fault him to resorting to their techniques. His problem against Takakeisho in the past has been largely because he attempts to grab the belt while they are slapping and pushing at him.  If they feel no obligation to go for the belt there is no reason why he should either. 

[Rocks 1,809]

1 hour ago, sahaven111 said:

Sunday I was thinking in let's say 3-4 years, if our yakozuna are Takakeisho and Ichinojo, how underwhelming the dohyo-iri ceremony will be.

I don't know if either will ever get there. But I have to say that I've never been terrible impressed with Hakuho and Kaluryu's dohyo-iri. To me Kisenosato was better and Harumafuji was miles better than the lot. 

[Sakura 1,499]

10 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I don't know if either will ever get there. But I have to say that I've never been terrible impressed with Hakuho and Kaluryu's dohyo-iri. To me Kisenosato was better and Harumafuji was miles better than the lot. 

I always enjoyed Harumafuji's.

[Jakusotsu 6,052]

3 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

Let's also not forget how special Takakeisho is, becoming Ozeki at 22 is not common at all.

And what's more, every Ozeki in the post-war era who got promoted at his age or younger made it to yokozuna eventually . . . except for Takanonami, a heya-mate of his former shisho - hmm....

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jakusotsu

[Amamaniac 2,079]

17 minutes ago, Sakura said:

I always enjoyed Harumafuji's.

Based on my forum name, I have to agree with you.  Although, I recall seeing a YouTube video in which the commentator notices some egregious mistakes made by Harumafuji in one of his dohyoiri performances.  

But If anyone knows how to do the dohyoiri, it is Hakuho.  After all, he has done it more times than anyone!  From what I've heard, Hakuho has done careful study of other Yokozuna who did the Shiranui style of dohyoiri.  And to his credit, Hakuho always seems to treat the ritual with total dedication.

[Akōgyokuseki 228]

17 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Although, I recall seeing a YouTube video in which the commentator notices some egregious mistakes made by Harumafuji in one of his dohyoiri performances.

If I remember correctly, didn't Harumafuji perform just one shiko before going into the shiranui stance? And I have to agree with you, he did have a great dohyo-iri, nobody got lower in the shiranui stance than him..his chest almost seemed to brush the dohyo.

One thing I have noticed...Hakuho's dohyo-iri is remarkably similar to Taiho's (who performed a very beautiful, graceful dohyo-iri)

Yokozuna Taiho's dohyo-iri

Edited March 26, 2019 by Akōgyokuseki
found video

[Zannah 49]

1 hour ago, Akōgyokuseki said:

If I remember correctly, didn't Harumafuji perform just one shiko before going into the shiranui stance? And I have to agree with you, he did have a great dohyo-iri, nobody got lower in the shiranui stance than him..his chest almost seemed to brush the dohyo.

One thing I have noticed...Hakuho's dohyo-iri is remarkably similar to Taiho's (who performed a very beautiful, graceful dohyo-iri)

Yokozuna Taiho's dohyo-iri

I ran out of likes/thanks already...  So thanks for the video link. He seems like very long guy, or does it just look like that because of video...? 

[sahaven111 186]

i would have never guessed that kotoshogiku was an ozeki. just found that out. i think he did really good and i couldn't imagine him being DEMOTED!!  he had the best sumo + score combo to me. great battles throughout! banzai!!

[TakaTochi 4]

20 minutes ago, sahaven111 said:

i would have never guessed that kotoshogiku was an ozeki. just found that out. i think he did really good and i couldn't imagine him being DEMOTED!!  he had the best sumo + score combo to me. great battles throughout! banzai!!

I'm a big fan of Kotoshougiku, too.  Where Tochinoshin is a forklift, Kotoshougiku is a bucking bronco.  Hard to be as explosive as he is at 35.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

2 hours ago, Akōgyokuseki said:

If I remember correctly, didn't Harumafuji perform just one shiko before going into the shiranui stance?

So you've seen that video too?  From my recollection (which I would not place too much stock in), there was a problem with which arm he raised prior to one of the shiko.  But I think it is harsh to attack him based on one slip.  Overall, he delivered a dohyoiri that was replete with "fan service" ... in the good sense.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Benevolance 2,511]

I also firmly believe it was criminal that the YDC nixed his frog taunt. Decorum, schmorum. Not on this forum!