Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

[sekitori 492]

1 hour ago, Fukurou said:

Better be sure your all-male medical team is dohyo-side and ready to go at all times, not just during matches. Can't have any more female medics trying to do their job to help save someone having a stroke on the dohyo while the current crew stand around waiting for someone else to do something.

When large crowds gather, emergency medical personnel must always be immediately available. That applies directly to sumo--whether an incident occurs during a honbasho or a jungyo, whether an official or someone in the audience is having a heart attack or stroke, or if a rikishi has been knocked unconscious on the dohyo. It really doesn't matter if those personnel are all male, all female, or a combination of the two. Defibrillators and other emergency medical equipment along with people knowing how to use them have to be present. The bottom line is that it is the duty of the NSK to see that to it that proper help is ALWAYS at hand. If they don't do this voluntarily,  steps must be taken to make them do so.

What I find most distressing about this incident is that adequate medical assistance was not at hand. Waiting for it to arrive could have meant the difference between life and death. Fortunately, this time it wasn't. Next time, however...........And yes, there certainly will be a "next time". When it occurs, something like this fiasco should never, never happen again.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by sekitori

[Kintamayama 47,229]

28 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

As to why the Mayor Nakagawa may not have said anything before now, I suspect it was because she figured that if the Mayor of Osaka was shouted down for years, then who would bother to listen to her, a comparatively minor official.  I cannot criticise her for being buoyed by the recent public reaction and media spotlight to seek to progress the issue, while everyone is finally listening, especially as a lot of women hold key political posts at the moment.  With an increasing number of female politicians in key posts and changing social values in Japan, this issue is unlikely to go away.

It seems like the first guys to pounce on any sumo-related scandal, the Ministry of etc.. and the Cabinet members etc.. are awfully quiet about this- I didn't read a single word uttered by anyone of the powers that be. The same guys that were quick to jump after by Takayoshitoshimoshi's attack and the Harumafuji affair. I'm not there, but from here, it seems nobody said a word. As for women who hold key political posts, I guess most of them understand it's a tradition. I haven't heard them complaining either - Uchidate, Ikenobo and other high profile women with connections to sumo. Where are they ? -  But I have no proof of anything. You people out there in Japan are awfully quiet too. Relying on me to provide with limited information (I am guessing this through the subtle hints that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about)  from the other side of the globe while you are there with access to tons of  local media- that seems really odd. 

[Asojima 2,874]

44 minutes ago, sekitori said:

What I find most distressing about this incident is that adequate medical assistance was not at hand. Waiting for it to arrive could have meant the difference between life and death. Fortunately, this time it wasn't. Next time, however...........And yes, there certainly will be a "next time". When it occurs, something like this fiasco should never, never happen again.

The timeline in the above video shows that the defibrillator and the first responders were on the dohyo within about 50 seconds.  There was no monumental life and death delay. It's nice that the lady doctor/nurse was quickly available, but it was in no way crucial to the situation.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Asojima

[Akinomaki 41,817]

On 4/9/2018 at 00:54, Asojima said:

The timeline in the above video shows that the defibrillator and the first responders were on the dohyo within about 50 seconds.  There was no monumental life and death delay. It's nice that the lady doctor/nurse was quickly available, but it was in no way crucial to the situation.

The mayor was the head of a local hospital, where the helping doctor and the nurses work - they quickly rushed to aid their (former) incho.

As to quietness about this in Japan: masses of media people and politicians, who are not in positions to pressure the NSK, call for abolishing this outdated tradition: just like at the other scandals, the usually less than 50 articles of sumo a day in my search jumped to 200 for several days - and the wide show coverage to hours a day.

- actually, if I post something without links, it is not just my personal view, but my try to give an impression of how it may look to the Japanese - from what I can guess from here with the media coverage  -  except in case of Taka: there I try to emulate, how the people (he attacks) within the NSK will likely perceive it -

As to Uchidate - like I wrote again in a post that is still in the jungyo thread, she was not in favor of abolishment, and wrote a book about the ban in 2006: amazon.co.jp/女はなぜ土俵にあがれないのか-幻冬舎新書-内館-牧子- with sample to read (Japanese of course)

The kindle sample of it is much bigger - you can send it to an app on PC, but need an amazon.jp account amazon.co.jp/女はなぜ土俵にあがれないのか-内館牧子-ebook/ - it is every 5th page of the book

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Yatagarasu 352]

11 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

As for women who hold key political posts, I guess most of them understand it's a tradition. I haven't heard them complaining either.

I recall seeing a few of them asked for comment on an NHK World News report (a minister, the Governor of Tokyo and someone else) - I will try to find the clip.  But as it was in the immediate aftermath of the emergency, only their comments on the 'life and death' aspect were aired - I don't know if more was said.  As I recall, elsewhere (I may have seen it in one of your own newsletters, in fact) the Governor of Tokyo said that she didn't have the energy to take this fight and sends her deputy for trophy-giving.  This smacks of tired resignation, rather than actual acceptance; a feeling painfully familiar to many women. 

[Kintamayama 47,229]

3 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

I - I don't know if more was said.  As I recall, elsewhere (I may have seen it in one of your own newsletters, in fact) the Governor of Tokyo said that she didn't have the energy to take this fight and sends her deputy for trophy-giving.  This smacks of tired resignation, rather than actual acceptance; a feeling painfully familiar to many women. 

This I know, but I meant the people in charge of sumo in the government. I didn't mean only other women. 

[Kintamayama 47,229]

5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

 

As to quietness about this in Japan: masses of media people and politicians who are not in positions to pressure the NSK call for an abolishment of this outdated tradition:

 

I see.. Just like I thought.

[serge_gva 52]

On 07/04/2018 at 13:16, Kintamayama said:

While we're at it, lets cover up the rikishi's asses as well. Seeing bare assess deeply offends me and my religion. I love sumo, but this is against my beliefs. They should wear short pants, and mawashis on top of them. What's the big deal??

Their ass is covered. Only their buttocks are not. In most occidental countries, it's allowed to wear a G-string in public ;)

[Kintamayama 47,229]

26 minutes ago, serge_gva said:

Their ass is covered. Only their buttocks are not. In most occidental countries, it's allowed to wear a G-string in public ;)

It's not the occidental fans that are complaining..

[Akinomaki 41,817]

The weekly Bankisha wide show had an interesting summary, with focus on the history of the ban and a bit on women's professional sumo of old.

On 1/30/2018 at 16:49, Akinomaki said:

Bankisha (NTV) https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=CAI%3D&search_query=バンキシャ - full to be found on 9tsu

As usual on 9tsu, but better not visit the site, rather download the video with youtube-dl, the first 20 min.: http://video.9tsu.com/videos/view?vid=125630

A better quality is on Pandora, it won't play for me, but youtube-dl gets it, sumo starts at 3:10: http://www.pandora.tv/view/themiku/55976617/OHT1T50167.html

Edited April 9, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 41,817]

From Bankisha: 60 years ago Wakamidori, a female former ozeki of onna-zumo spoke some greetings ON the dohyo at a jungyo - the Takasago-oyakata (Maedayama) of the time asked her to have an intai ceremony on the ozumo dohyo. http://www.hochi.co.jp/entertainment/20180408-OHT1T50167.html

o

Wakamidori while active

o

o o

Edited April 9, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Benihana 1,972]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

From Bankisha: 60 years ago Wakamidori, a female former ozeki of onna-zumo spoke some greetings ON the dohyo at a jungyo - the Takasago-oyakata (Maedayama) of the time asked her to have an intai ceremony on the ozumo dohyo. http://www.hochi.co.jp/entertainment/20180408-OHT1T50167.html

Sooo...why not follow that tradition, eh?

Did a quick google search and look whom i found happily smiling, sorrounded by female rikishi?

https://www.google.de/search?q=onna-zumo&client=opera&hs=Jde&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF0o_F7a3aAhUIZVAKHY3iAcAQsAQIKw&biw=1280&bih=672#imgrc=_

[Yukiarashi 195]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 08:12, Akinomaki said:

From Bankisha: 60 years ago Wakamidori, a female former ozeki of onna-zumo spoke some greetings ON the dohyo at a jungyo - the Takasago-oyakata (Maedayama) of the time asked her to have an intai ceremony on the ozumo dohyo.

Okay, now I am beyond confused...

[ALAKTORN 346]

On 4/9/2018 at 20:56, Benihana said:

Sooo...why not follow that tradition, eh?

Did a quick google search and look whom i found happily smiling, sorrounded by female rikishi?

https://www.google.de/search?q=onna-zumo&client=opera&hs=Jde&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF0o_F7a3aAhUIZVAKHY3iAcAQsAQIKw&biw=1280&bih=672#imgrc=_

No idea what you’re talking about. Maybe try again linking the picture?

[RabidJohn 2,070]

6 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

No idea what you’re talking about. Maybe try again linking the picture?

I was the same, but when I scrolled down I found Kintamayama's avatar pic...

[orandashoho 720]

Great article, @John Gunning.

[Fukurou 534]

2 hours ago, John Gunning said:

 

My opinion.

Time for sumo to ditch ban on women in ring

Interesting article, John.

I also liked the 1st (so far, only) comment, in which the writer says the high priest at his local Shinto shrine is female.

[Akinomaki 41,817]

Goody Goodday has developed into THE wide show for sumo. Yesterday (used again today) the mayor of Kakegawa was interviewed - he now gets bashed for his sarcasm. Today an interview on the phone with Ikenobo. She doesn't talk openly in favor of abolishing the ban yet, "We have to be flexible. There are things to keep and things to change. That made sumo survive till today. We should think about it from now on", but it should be just a matter of time: you have to keep in mind that she managed to have her daughter designated the first ever iemoto (head) of an ikebana school (the biggest) - breaking a similar tradition like the ban. http://www.daily.co.jp/gossip/2018/04/11/0011153954.shtml

Edited April 11, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Chankomafuji 51]

 

7 hours ago, John Gunning said:

 

My opinion.

Time for sumo to ditch ban on women in ring

 

Once again a ridiculous article in japantimes.
And no matter that it is labeled as "opinion", this is published in a media, not for example a random forum post.
While the sumo part in the article is  on point, there are some opinions that I feel I need to address.

"The main (only) argument given, is that it is a tradition and as such shouldn’t be changed or forsaken." This argument in most parts of the world (with very small, and mostly known examples which you all are free to guess) is actually one very important argument. While there are countries which exist for 100, 200, 300 years, some do for thousands. Is this insignificant? Believe me, it is not. Many nations' pride nowadays comes from history. Can you blame them for that? 

"Some, like human sacrifice, ..." if death is the fate of one being sacrificed, how many people died in the history of sumo because women did not step on the dohyo?  Is this really a valid example? Exaggerating is the least I can call this.

"“Women should not enter the ring.” Replace the subject in that sentence with pretty much any other group of historically persecuted people (blacks / Jews / people with Down syndrome etc.) and see how easily it sits with you."  PERSECUTION??? Implying that women not stepping on the dohyo  can be compared with PERSECUTION, forgive me, is absolutely laughable.  

"Let’s not forget that in an increasingly post-binary-gender world, such discriminatory policies have a very limited shelf life." I am very curious to know which parts of the world the majority of the people agree and believe in this.
 

"Is the JSA’s ban based on biology or gender identity? If it’s the former, will they need to implement testosterone testing as in the Olympics? If the latter, how do they deal with someone who is gender-fluid? What about someone who is transgender?" This is absolutely gross even to read, again, for I believe, the majority of the world's population (maybe with small exceptions, like parts of the North American continent).  And here too we have the transgender thing as an example. Are we supposed to accept insanity, sadism in sumo too?
 

"And that’s not even touching on potential questions raised by the rapid development of technology. Is it acceptable for a physical male avatar to enter the ring if piloted by a woman? What about when we develop artificial general intelligence? Will androids have to specify a gender?" Are we talking about sumo here or cartoon-based stuff? This article is getting more and more ridiculous as it goes on.

 

"The more you break it down, the more ridiculous it becomes. The solution is quite clear. Do away with the ban and treat all people fairly and with equal respect." Oh, we actually agree here, with the first sentence. As for the "treat all people fairly and with equal respect", this sentence, like the above, feels more we are talking about not only men and women, but avatars and androids. 

Now, this 2 I'll quote together.
"For better or worse, sumo represents Japan in a way that even wildly popular sports like baseball or soccer never can. "
"So what does it say about our country when the national sport clearly doesn’t value women as equals? Is that the image we are happy to portray when the planet’s attention will be focused on us for the 2019 Rugby World Cup and 2020 Olympic Games?" Now, correct me if I am wrong, but in Japan there is no such things as "soccer". I assume you are talking about football, which leads me to the second quote. It is clear, that by "our country" you are talking about Japan. What I cannot understand is, after reading all this article, can you really (or more likely, should you) really call Japan your country? 

"The reality is the world is changing. Bastions of male privilege are being dragged into the modern world and things that were acceptable just five or 10 years ago no longer are. " We have another comparison here, this time it is the word "privilege". And since it is not sumo (where in ozumo men are SO privileged to be the only who can enter the dohyo, where they only do their sport), let's talk about the "modern world" thing. And the "five or 10 years ago". Have you ever heard about Mount Athos? The monastic community is too part of the "modern world" you are talking about (and since you support it with years it implies that by "modern world" you mean "nowadays"). A woman has not step foot in over thousand years. And because you like to generalize and use splendid examples, as you often in this article go beyond sumo, I encourage you to get familiar with Mount Athos is and explain the monks, with your extraordinary "modern" understanding, why women should not be ... persecuted. Why men should not be "privileged" and you can tell them stories about gender-fluid, transgender, android, avatar and artificial intelligence. 

And citing Marcus Aurelius ... what do you even know about this man besides a random quote, probably found in google after typing "quotes about change" :)))

And because it is a long reply, I want to remind something. I do understand that this is only an opinion. But the "japantimes" is a media. In this case it can no longer be defined only as an "opinion". 

 

[Akinomaki 41,817]

55 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but in Japan there is no such things as "soccer". I assume you are talking about football

In Japan there is no such thing as football. There is amefuto - American football - and soccer. The Japan soccer association (also NSK) only international is the Japan Football Association JFA (and JSA was in use by our NSK), the public knows the sport as soccer.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Akinomaki

[RaeucherLax 292]

13 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

In Japan there is no such thing as football. There is amefuto - American football - and soccer. The Japan soccer association only international is the Japan Football Association JFA, the public knows the sport as soccer.

That's probably thanks to the US influence... as they are the only ones I was aware of using the term soccer  for football! 

And thanks to @John Gunning for the article! 

[Chankomafuji 51]

7 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

In Japan there is no such thing as football. There is amefuto - American football - and soccer. The Japan soccer association only international is the Japan Football Association JFA, the public knows the sport as soccer.

That is correct, thank you for clarifying. Indeed I did go by what is internationally known. 

[Sakura 1,524]

39 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

"Some, like human sacrifice, ..." if death is the fate of one being sacrificed, how many people died in the history of sumo because women did not step on the dohyo?  Is this really a valid example? Exaggerating is the least I can call this.

"“Women should not enter the ring.” Replace the subject in that sentence with pretty much any other group of historically persecuted people (blacks / Jews / people with Down syndrome etc.) and see how easily it sits with you."  PERSECUTION??? Implying that women not stepping on the dohyo  can be compared with PERSECUTION, forgive me, is absolutely laughable.  
 

I'm not even going to touch on most of your response. I don't want to have this site have to do a Tachiai.

Can I just say what's it's like being a woman, in my experience? I have people throw insults at me as a walk down the street just because I'm a woman. By men, obviously. It would be nice to live in a place where that doesn't happen, but it's a fact of life for me.

We are discriminated against. For years in many places we didn't have a right to vote. That was a tradition, put about by men. In many industries woman are still pay less than men despite having the same qualifications and experiences.

@John Gunning is not suggesting that we're being killed because of stepping on the dohyo. He's merely highlighting that if you were to replace with women with e.g. black in that sentence then there would be more obvious outcry. Why? Not because discriminating against women is ok, but because often it's a lot more hidden and harder to see.

A lot of tradition against women (particularly in religion) stems from women being considered impure or not as good as men. Once upon a time, women were banished to tents during their menstruation. There is nothing unnatural about menstruation, but the legacy of that and similar pronouncements against women continues today. 

By considering women to be impure (no basis in science for that), or somehow lesser than men we perpetuate discrimination against women in a number of ways. The male privilege is to benefit from this just by being male. One of the ways males can benefit from this is by pretending it doesn't exist (since the discrimination doesn't affect them), or dismissing it or saying it's a tradition.

Women on the other hand have to fight for equality and recognition, and sometimes they are afraid to do so because of retaliation by males. That would answer the question as to why some politicians didn't speak about it last year. I suspect that those politicians finally felt like they had a voice on this subject.

[Benevolance 2,534]

Sakura said it much more kindly than I was going to. 

[Chankomafuji 51]

@Sakura, while Mr. Gunning's article still had sumo in it, your post assembles pure political, feminist statement.  

Is it that much of a problem for you as a woman that women can not step on the dohyo where essentially men are competing? Does it hurt your woman pride? In my previous post, I gave another example where women are forbidden to enter, does that fact there disturb you too? Does it bother billions of Christians that a woman is forbidden to serve as a deacon? Now I certainly want to mention that I agree for a different and clear interpretation (certainly not removal) of this rule where like in this case women can do good in emergencies. Even the welcoming speeches or giving a reward by an official (!), fine. I do understand that the part of woman impurity in sumo (no matter how trivial it is, as the rikishi too have wifes and women they love and live with). Would it satisfy you if the Sumo Association make a statement that it it not "woman impurity" the reason of women not being allowed to step on the dohyo? Or as the feminist organizations, every struggle has to lead to total surrender to every demand? 

If a woman says in public that size matters it is all laugh, no problem. If a man says in public that (breast) size matters, it is discrimination, a strike against human rights.