Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

[Kintamayama 40,742]

9 minutes ago, Sakura said:

Aside from the fact this might be more information than I want to know, isn't he, as Jungyo head, meant to be ring-side listening to the mayor at this point in the day?

My thoughts exactly, but I guess not.

[Kintamayama 40,742]

16 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

I don’t see the big deal, the kyōkai seems to have emergency measures in place already (a man took off where the woman left) so the announcer was just saying to let the staff do what they’re paid for instead of having the audience mess with it.

The announcer said- "All women please get off the dohyo." Three times. So he wasn't just saying to let the staff do what they do. That being said, in this psycho world of overly political correctness and general two-faced morals etc.. etc (we live in a world where we can't talk anymore for fear of offending someone or something..).. I'm not surprised at all at this "uproar". Still, I'm pretty sure most of the Twitter comments and other comments on social media were written by people who have never seen a second of sumo and are more into being morally indignant  than seeing things in proportion. I do think the young gyoji screwed up really badly, though, because it was downright stupid, the whole issue of women on the dohyo notwithstanding.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 40,742]

Gevalt!! Women on the dohyo!!

 

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 40,742]

Just now, John Gunning said:

This is a far bigger deal than the Ota situation.

How so? This is  a remote jungyo, public outcry notwithstanding. This is some young gyoji getting his priorities wrong. The Ota thing went on for five years-she kept demanding to mount the dohyo and the bigwigs kept stalling till she went away. This was sanctioned at the executive level. I don't see even a remote comparison. The only difference is that today there is  hysterical social media that blows these things out of proportion.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kintamayama

[WAKATAKE 2,365]

16 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

How so? This is  a remote jungyo, public outcry notwithstanding. This is some young gyoji getting his priorities wrong. The Ota thing went on for five years-she kept demanding to mount the dohyo and the bigwigs kept stalling till she went away. This was sanctioned at the executive level. I don't see even a remote comparison. The only difference is that today there is  hysterical social media that blows these things out of proportion.

That is what contributes to a lot of companies, organizations and individual entities having to change a lot of their stances or backpedal on things that come under public scrutiny. And in this day and age it hangs around a lot longer. And if you're not with the program to adapt to it, it will haunt you for a long time. They're going to have to do a lot of education and training, and it really is a good thing that it happened at the jungyo, because it would be getting a lot more attention if it did indeed happen at a honbasho. They now have time to prepare for a next time, God forbid.

[Kintamayama 40,742]

 

2 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

No one’s life was at stake then. That’s the key difference. Defending tradition is easier when public support is behind you and the opponent is a politician.

Times have changed dramicatically since then too. 

So, what do you see happening as a consequence?  Will the Kyokai be punished for the deeds of a young gyoji, or are you saying this is jut a PR disaster that may affect ticket sales? 

[Chankomafuji 51]

33 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

 

So, what do you see happening as a consequence?  Will the Kyokai be punished for the deeds of a young gyoji, or are you saying this is jut a PR disaster that may affect ticket sales? 

The consequence is already happening - clear outrage  by sumo fans.  And that is a sort of punishment. As for the "young gyoji" ... I find blaming him absolutely inappropriate. He defends what he is taught. And it is something fundamental in sumo tradition. And even if he was the sole responsible for the announcements (which I am not convinced in), what if he did not made any? A very logical thought can cross his mind - "won't I get punished for NOT making a stand?". This is a perfect example why the "young gyoji" is the last one to be a reason for excuses. 
This incident should now bring talks and discussions about how to bent the understanding about this "women and dohyo" question. Because this incident showed, and the people agree with it, that in certain cases women can do good even on the dohyo.
 

[Kintamayama 40,742]

3 minutes ago, Chankomafuji said:

The consequence is already happening - clear outrage  by sumo fans.  And that is a sort of punishment. As for the "young gyoji" ... I find blaming him absolutely inappropriate. He defends what he is taught. And it is something fundamental in sumo tradition. And even if he was the sole responsible for the announcements (which I am not convinced in), what if he did not made any? A very logical thought can cross his mind - "won't I get punished for NOT making a stand?". This is a perfect example why the "young gyoji" is the last one to be a reason for excuses. 
This incident should now bring talks and discussions about how to bent the understanding about this "women and dohyo" question. Because this incident showed, and the people agree with it, that in certain cases women can do good even on the dohyo.
 

I'm pretty sure there is no " clear outrage by sumo fans". I'm pretty sure there is clear outrage by the usual professional talkback indignants who have mostly never watched  a second of sumo. Sumo fans know "the women rule" as an axiom and , apparently, have had no problem with that since the very beginning. So if you think this is going to "bend the understanding about this women and dohyo question"  I seriously doubt this. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kintamayama

[RabidJohn 1,232]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

A male streaker is more or less what we have on a daily basis, no?

Not really. Being 'tackle out' is hansoku, no?

---

I don't see this as anything more than a bit of an embarrassment for the NSK, but what do I know? I don't do social media and I don't have a mobile, so maybe I'm just as anachronistic as ozumo.

What I do know is that none of the recent scandals have had a negative effect on my desire to watch sumo.

Edited April 5, 2018 by RabidJohn

[RabidJohn 1,232]

Whoops - double post!

Edited April 5, 2018 by RabidJohn

[Kintamayama 40,742]

26 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

I'll put all my thoughts in next weeks Japan Times column. Right now I'm still formulating my opinions and reaching out to others for information.

 

•  

For the record, I say nothing will change. A bit of a fuss and it will be forgotten when the next scandal comes along.

[Chankomafuji 51]

13 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I'm pretty sure there is no " clear outrage by sumo fans". I'm pretty sure there is clear outrage by the usual professional talkback indignants who have mostly never watched  a second of sumo. Sumo fans know "the women rule" as an axiom and , apparently, have had no problem with that since the very beginning. So if you think this is going to "bend the understanding about this women and dohyo question"  I seriously doubt this. 

You can open yourself this video and read the comments below.  Out of over 4 thousand, I don't know how many of them do not have a negative flavor. And I do believe that most of them do watch sumo (or at least, a second of sumo). If we do not take the Japanese fans' opinion in account, I am not sure whose one will matter at all. 

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Chankomafuji

[Eikokurai 3,418]

I can’t wait for a Guardian columnist to pick up on this ‘story’ and write an ignorant editorial about how sumo is a microcosm of wider female oppression in patriarchal Japanese culture. Or something.

[Kintamayama 40,742]

1 hour ago, Chankomafuji said:

You can open yourself this video and read the comments below.  Out of over 4 thousand, I don't know how many of them do not have a negative flavor. And I do believe that most of them do watch sumo (or at least, a second of sumo). If we do not take the Japanese fans' opinion in account, I am not sure whose one will matter at all. 

 

I have no doubt that an overwhelming number of people have a negative flavor. The question is , how many of them are sumo fans, and how many are voicing their indignancy over women's rights.  We'll soon see with the start of the May ticket sales and how and if it affects the sales. I still think this will be a non-issue in a few days.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

13 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I can’t wait for a Guardian columnist to pick up on this ‘story’ and write an ignorant editorial about how sumo is a microcosm of wider female oppression in patriarchal Japanese culture. Or something.

I didn’t have to wait very long for it to at least get an article!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/05/women-ordered-off-stage-at-sumo-contest-after-trying-to-help-stricken-mayor

[dada78641 853]

4 hours ago, yutarotanaka said:

That was an epic f***-up on the part of the PA announcer. I mean sure, sumo is rooted deep in rituals and religious beliefs but come on. With all due respect to the strict code of conduct of sumo, when a life is a stake couldn't he prioritize things and suspend for a moment this ridiculous rule and focus on what needs to be done. Oh man... Face palms all around.

Still, despite being rooted deeply in rituals and sticking to the historical ways of doing things, sumo is none the less a sport that naturally adapts with new technology. They obviously use TV cameras, they use TV evidence in the monoii, they communicate electronically to call the kimarete. They didn't have any of those things in the past. When you start listing the differences between then and now, there's probably a hundred more. People have cartoons on their kesho-mawashi. So I don't buy the "this is how it's always been" argument that sumo people keep relying on. Sumo won't fall apart with a few more sensible 21st century changes.

[dada78641 853]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

I'm pretty sure there is no " clear outrage by sumo fans". I'm pretty sure there is clear outrage by the usual professional talkback indignants who have mostly never watched  a second of sumo. Sumo fans know "the women rule" as an axiom and , apparently, have had no problem with that since the very beginning.

The "no women" rule is bullshit. You know it, I know it, anyone who's a sumo fan know it. We just don't talk about it because nobody expects it to change.

Besides, you can talk about how the people who are outraged by this "aren't real sumo fans", but does that mean they are automatically wrong? They're not. Doesn't matter if you're a sumo fan or not. All you need is half a brain.

I'm glad it's giving people an opportunity to put pressure on the NSK, because they were obviously never going to do anything about this otherwise.

[Kintamayama 40,742]

20 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

The "no women" rule is bullshit. You know it, I know it, anyone who's a sumo fan know it. We just don't talk about it because nobody expects it to change.

Besides, you can talk about how the people who are outraged by this "aren't real sumo fans", but does that mean they are automatically wrong? They're not. Doesn't matter if you're a sumo fan or not. All you need is half a brain.

I'm glad it's giving people an opportunity to put pressure on the NSK, because they were obviously never going to do anything about this otherwise.

And you think now they are going to make any sort of change regarding women on the dohyo? And I don't think the 'no woman on the dohyo' rule is bullshit. It's part of sumo, like showing your ass is, which is frowned upon in the West. Non-sumo fans don't get it that, for better or for worse, the no woman rule is part of sumo, regardless of what your personal views on the subject are, and will remain that way forever. Non-sumo fans tend to make a fuss of it more than sumo fans, who know that it's part of sumo, for better or worse. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 40,742]

Hakkaku Oyakata intends to apologize personally to the women in question and to visit the Mayor at the hospital when it will become possible. He was briefed by Matsugane Oyakata as to what  exactly happened. According to Oguruma Oyakata, the gyoji heard voices from the crowd wondering why there are women on  the dohyo, and made the announcement accordingly. "He was confused and made the announcement in haste, but that's not an excuse.. In any situation, a person's life comes first!!" he said. He also explained that the woman was a nurse. "I cannot comment," said the Gyoji himself.  As for the fact that immediately after the Mayor was taken to the hospital, salt was thrown into the dohyo, he explained that every time a rikishi is injured in honbasho it is customary to throw salt on the dohyo.

[Pandaazuma 1,270]

I fully support the no-women rule myself...at the risk of finding myself being spat at by the PC brigade. Sumo is sumo. No women on the dohyo. The way it has always been. When you start adapting to PC imperatives, sumo will change in some way and will less and less resemble sumo, which of course is so much more than simply wrestling. This rule is one of the things that make it so unusual, unique and anachronistic.

That said, I am totally against old traditions that actually get people hurt or killed, as in some societies women getting stoned to death or flogged for speaking to someone of a 'higher' caste. And so in this particular case, a female doctor being on hand was fortuitous and may have saved this poor man's life. It should be seen (to me anyway) as just an unfortunate anomoly. Sumo will go on as before and hopefully not too much harm done.

My two cents. Hopefully I won't get my arse kicked by a mod for raising an issue that some people get rather upset about. ;)

[Zenjimoto 39]

The issue at hand is much deeper than just sumo traditions, but goes into the systematic discrimination of women and their treatment as second-class citizens in many more ways than just this - including the fictional constructs of "religion", which are too often used as excuses to oppress and demean women.  The sheer notion that women are "impure" is ludicrous, and has no place in advanced civilization.  It is utter nonsense, and its time has long passed.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,000]

Reading a few papers, seems like one of the OG reason is menstruation. Since we have pads and tampons now, and menstruation isn't really considered a monthly injury anymore, should be cool, right?

[ryafuji 760]

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

I didn’t have to wait very long for it to at least get an article!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/05/women-ordered-off-stage-at-sumo-contest-after-trying-to-help-stricken-mayor

Right, but it's not an opinion piece or an editorial. I'm seeing a lot of similar coverage in the Western media - ABC, BBC, Washington Post etc.

Edited April 5, 2018 by ryafuji
typo

[orandashoho 719]

To pacify the traditionalists, the Kyokai could come up with a simple purification ritual that could also serve as a thank-you to the spirits that allow women to save the hides of men.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

37 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Right, but it's not an opinion piece or an editorial. I'm seeing a lot of similar coverage in the Western media - ABC, BBC, Washington Post etc.

That’s why I said “article” and not editorial.