Basho Talk - Haru Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Jyuunomori 226]

Today we have a lot of interesting bouts in lower divisions.

Osunaarashi will face Chiyoshoma the Tiny (relatively) Mongolian.

Ura will fight of against Sato. Both of them are 4-0 and this will most likely show us who wins Makushita Yusho. Sato is great but I think Ura is just more skilled. That is my argument to everything nowday.

Hirotsukasa the other tiny rising rockstar is going to face Oki today. Both of them are 4-0. It is going to be exciting bout.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Jyuunomori

[hamcornheinz 839]

Inner Mongolia, which is part of China, so yeah, first time a Chinese rikishi ever faced a Yokozuna

With China especially, since it's been a multi-ethnic empire for many centuries, nationality and ethnicity are not always the same thing. Strictly speaking, there is no one "Chinese" ethnicity, only a majority ethnicity (Han) and a patchwork of many others, Mongols included. Insisting it must be either/or isn't useful.

There were traditionally 12 races, among which are people who are and look like Muslims, and people who look like Russians. Now let's put this matter to rest.

[Kuroyama 715]

He's been summoned before. And methinks he'll be summoned and spoken to over this.

He won't! Hakuho certainly doesn't look to be in the best of moods but that push on Yoshikaze was just part of the fight. Of course we can see easily on replays and gifs and the like that Hakuho is a monster because Yoshikaze's foot was out, but the man himself was just making an instinctive and split-second move to finish a bout against a very slippery customer.

It's a little hard to believe that an experienced yokozuna didn't know his opponent was out, not least because there was an oyakata almost literally right in his face with his hand up signaling the bout was over. Hell, even Hakuho's foot was out before that last throw! Win or lose, the bout was most certainly over.

And it's not just replays and gifs, to judge by the crowd reaction.

[Asashosakari 18,651]

It's a little hard to believe that an experienced yokozuna didn't know his opponent was out, not least because there was an oyakata almost literally right in his face with his hand up signaling the bout was over. Hell, even Hakuho's foot was out before that last throw! Win or lose, the bout was most certainly over.

It was more a one-armed shove than a throw, really. As far as I can tell it was two motions right after one another - Hakuho heaved Yoshikaze across the tawara, and then that almost instantly transitioned into the shove. I do think this was a heat-of-the-moment thing (unlike the one against Okinoumi, which was pretty inexcusable), and I'd say Yoshikaze would have tumbled off the dohyo in any case since they both had quite some momentum anyway, but I'd agree that this definitely qualifies as a bit of a jerk move, given that the semi-lifting motion right before was clearly enough to get Yoshikaze well out of the ring - and if there's one guy who's experienced enough to be able to realize that, it's Hakuho. That makes it a little hard to buy this one as a "just making sure he was really out" deal.

Edit: My best guess is that Hakuho didn't want to get pulled off the dohyo by a falling Yoshikaze and went way overboard in trying to put distance between them. (Or maybe he just hates the guys who beat him half a year ago...)

Edited March 21, 2016 by Asashosakari

[hamcornheinz 839]

It was more a one-armed shove than a throw, really. As far as I can tell it was two motions right after one another - Hakuho heaved Yoshikaze across the tawara, and then that almost instantly transitioned into the shove. I do think this was a heat-of-the-moment thing (unlike the one against Okinoumi, which was pretty inexcusable), and I'd say Yoshikaze would have tumbled off the dohyo in any case since they both had quite some momentum anyway, but I'd agree that this definitely qualifies as a bit of a jerk move, given that the semi-lifting motion right before was clearly enough to get Yoshikaze well out of the ring - and if there's one guy who's experienced enough to be able to realize that, it's Hakuho. That makes it a little hard to buy this one as a "just making sure he was really out" deal.

I do think that the same Hakuho who beat Yoshikaze to a pulp in the ring would probably not think of restraint at the edge. Also Yoshikaze is a slippery opponent at the edge. And I imagine this wouldn't happen with Kakuryu or Harumafuji, who are always thinking of their opponent's well-being.

[Asashosakari 18,651]

I do think that the same Hakuho who beat Yoshikaze to a pulp in the ring would probably not think of restraint at the edge. Also Yoshikaze is a slippery opponent at the edge. And I imagine this wouldn't happen with Kakuryu or Harumafuji, who are always thinking of their opponent's well-being.

It was only a couple of years ago that it was Harumafuji who had a reputation for unnecessary extra shoves. He's seemingly mellowed out during his yokozuna tenure, but ozeki Harumafuji was certainly no poster child for opponent protection. Edited March 21, 2016 by Asashosakari

[Fukurou 534]

He's been summoned before. And methinks he'll be summoned and spoken to over this.

He won't! Hakuho certainly doesn't look to be in the best of moods but that push on Yoshikaze was just part of the fight. Of course we can see easily on replays and gifs and the like that Hakuho is a monster because Yoshikaze's foot was out, but the man himself was just making an instinctive and split-second move to finish a bout against a very slippery customer.

Does it matter that Hakuho's right foot was fully out as well when he administered that shove?

[CT3* 331]

He's been summoned before. And methinks he'll be summoned and spoken to over this.

He won't! Hakuho certainly doesn't look to be in the best of moods but that push on Yoshikaze was just part of the fight. Of course we can see easily on replays and gifs and the like that Hakuho is a monster because Yoshikaze's foot was out, but the man himself was just making an instinctive and split-second move to finish a bout oagainst a very slippery customer.

I agree with you. As I said earlier, I think the analysis on here gets a bit overblown. But given that a shimpan was injured, I could see him being told to be careful. At which time he'll likely reply with the usual "it was all in the flow".

[hamcornheinz 839]

I do think that the same Hakuho who beat Yoshikaze to a pulp in the ring would probably not think of restraint at the edge. Also Yoshikaze is a slippery opponent at the edge. And I imagine this wouldn't happen with Kakuryu or Harumafuji, who are always thinking of their opponent's well-being.

It was only a couple of years ago that it was Harumafuji who had a reputation for unnecessary extra shoves. He's seemingly mellowed out during his yokozuna tenure, but ozeki Harumafuji was certainly no poster child for opponent protection.

True. Hes pretty mild nowadays, though.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Well, I don't think he'll be cautioned for injuring a shinpan. The risk is all part of the game and known to all the shinpan. He'd be cautioned if it was a ridiculously over-the-top shove, perhaps, but I don't think he was cautioned even for the blatant dame-oshi on Okinoumi so this one probably won't qualify either.

As for questions like 'Does it matter that Hakuho's foot was already out?' Well, yes it probably might to people watching who have never done sumo and have no true appreciation of how it feels in the middle of a battle as intense as that and that perhaps may not appreciate that there is the occasional loss of perfect awareness of where your feet are etc. I am including myself here, of course...I don't know either - which is precisely the point. And this is why I don't condemn people in their field for doing things I have no appreciation of...and, where possible, give them the benefit of the doubt.

[kumasama 28]

Well, I don't think he'll be cautioned for injuring a shinpan. The risk is all part of the game and known to all the shinpan. He'd be cautioned if it was a ridiculously over-the-top shove, perhaps, but I don't think he was cautioned even for the blatant dame-oshi on Okinoumi so this one probably won't qualify either.

As for questions like 'Does it matter that Hakuho's foot was already out?' Well, yes it probably might to people watching who have never done sumo and have no true appreciation of how it feels in the middle of a battle as intense as that and that perhaps may not appreciate that there is the occasional loss of perfect awareness of where your feet are etc. I am including myself here, of course...I don't know either - which is precisely the point. And this is why I don't condemn people in their field for doing things I have no appreciation of...and, where possible, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Agreed, but it's just a bit hard to give the benefit of the doubt again and again, especially when others manage to refrain from this kind of thing... Does anyone know if there has been much response in the Japanese media?

Edited March 21, 2016 by kumasama

[Kuroyama 715]

Well, I don't think he'll be cautioned for injuring a shinpan. The risk is all part of the game and known to all the shinpan. He'd be cautioned if it was a ridiculously over-the-top shove, perhaps, but I don't think he was cautioned even for the blatant dame-oshi on Okinoumi so this one probably won't qualify either.

As for questions like 'Does it matter that Hakuho's foot was already out?' Well, yes it probably might to people watching who have never done sumo and have no true appreciation of how it feels in the middle of a battle as intense as that and that perhaps may not appreciate that there is the occasional loss of perfect awareness of where your feet are etc. I am including myself here, of course...I don't know either - which is precisely the point. And this is why I don't condemn people in their field for doing things I have no appreciation of...and, where possible, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Agreed, but it's just a bit hard to give the benefit of the doubt again and again, especially when others manage to refrain from this kind of thing... Does anyone know if there has been much response in the Japanese media?

Well, that's just it, isn't it? If this behavior was common enough that everyone did it with this frequency, it would be unremarkable. But it's very remarkable every time it happens. And to judge from Yoshikaze's complaint as translated by Kinta in the Ample Men thread, it's pretty much all they were asking him about afterward.

On the other hand, now that I look carefully at the gif, there may be something to the "flow of the bout" thing, and that Hakuho was totally unaware of where he was on the dohyo. He stepped out to make the throw only a fraction of a second after Yoshikaze stepped out himself. It's perhaps not too likely he'd risk losing just to make a point in anger.

[kumasama 28]

In happier news, Kotoshogiku v. Kisenosato today should be a good one, with both of them being in good form!

[Dwale 419]

In happier news, Kotoshogiku v. Kisenosato today should be a good one, with both of them being in good form!

Oo! I don't look up the next day's matches because I like to be surprised, but yeah...hmm! *looks angrily at clock* Move faster!

Got mixed feelings about this one, for sure. I prefer Kisenosato, but while I think he has the skills and the body to take this yusho, I (and not alone in this, I'm sure) have some doubts regarding his mental game. Ah well, nothing to do but cheer!

[Katooshu 3,079]

First loss for Kotokamatani...

[rhyen 1,799]

I do think that the same Hakuho who beat Yoshikaze to a pulp in the ring would probably not think of restraint at the edge. Also Yoshikaze is a slippery opponent at the edge. And I imagine this wouldn't happen with Kakuryu or Harumafuji, who are always thinking of their opponent's well-being.

It was only a couple of years ago that it was Harumafuji who had a reputation for unnecessary extra shoves. He's seemingly mellowed out during his yokozuna tenure, but ozeki Harumafuji was certainly no poster child for opponent protection.

True. Hes pretty mild nowadays, though.

Has everyone already forgotten about Harumafuji throwing Kisenosato at Izutsu last basho and missing?

[kumasama 28]

Oo! I don't look up the next day's matches because I like to be surprised, but yeah...hmm! *looks angrily at clock* Move faster!

Got mixed feelings about this one, for sure. I prefer Kisenosato, but while I think he has the skills and the body to take this yusho, I (and not alone in this, I'm sure) have some doubts regarding his mental game. Ah well, nothing to do but cheer!

Sorry!

I've got the feeling that the odds are pretty good of one of these two getting the yusho... so even though they've faced each other a million times before, I think this time will be pivotal.

Sadly, I'll be on the train at the time...

[kuroimori 1,634]

What a day so far:

Kotokamatani lost in Jonidan, bringing his immaculate start into Ozumo to an end at 11-0

Ura lost in upper Makushita against Sato, making the Juryo promotion picture a bit more interesting again

Osunaarashi lost his first match against Chiyoshoma today, keeping the lead in Juryo though.

What will have Makuuchi in store for us today?

[rhyen 1,799]

A Kisenosato henka?

[Senkoho 552]

Hakuho doen't have to throw people at shinpan anymore, now he's perfectly happy with elbowing them in the face... Great sumo from the Dai-Yokozuna.

[Senkoho 552]

A Kisenosato henka?

How was that a henka?

[d_golem 213]

What a day so far:

Kotokamatani lost in Jonidan, bringing his immaculate start into Ozumo to an end at 11-0

Ura lost in upper Makushita against Sato, making the Juryo promotion picture a bit more interesting again

Osunaarashi lost his first match against Chiyoshoma today, keeping the lead in Juryo though.

What will have Makuuchi in store for us today?

Too bad Kotokamatani, Ura and Osu won't have perfect record this basho. Hopefully that will spur them on to win the rest of the matches. Edited March 21, 2016 by d_golem

[orandashoho 720]

Goeido... what a way to get out of kadoban status.

Osunaarashi... Im still rooting for him to get the Juryo yusho.

Kotokamatani... it had to happen sometime, no? Better not get complacent.

Ura... pity, but I don't thik it will slow him down much.

Edited March 21, 2016 by orandashoho

[rhyen 1,799]

Reference Aminishiki's textbook henka.

Aminishiki vs Myogiru on Thursday (day 5)

[grigorian 10]

Great basho so far, but I´m pretty disapointed about the two wins group. One sekiwake two komusubi, one M1 and two M2.

Meanwhile, Goeido "Hulk Smasssh". :-D Best basho so far since 2007

Edited March 21, 2016 by grigorian