Hakuho retires

[Seiyashi 4,068]

23 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I interpret the quote as 'It was not unanimous but, it (Hakuho assuming the Magaki name) isn't being rejected. Rijikai will decide. It (probably) won't be rejected'.

Because of the BUT (けど）after the not unanimous part, makes me think that when they say it won't be rejected, they are talking about about Hakuho assuming the Magaki name. I don't think you can interpret it as being not outright declined here.

Reading between the lines, it seems insinuated that the member making the trouble here is the external committee member.

Out of likes but thanks. 

Considering what @themistyseas said a bit ago about fans, I wonder if there are fans and there are fans. It seems that while the general public's only knowledge of sumo is Hakuho, and they have a favourable view of him, what passes for the intelligentsia amongst the sumo fans seem to have a pretty strong view against him - that includes the YDC and now, apparently, this odd external committee member.

[RabidJohn 1,629]

4 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

What's not true in that statement? 

Ok, I stand to be wrong again, but it was my understanding that the shikona was bestowed by the oyakata.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

Again this is completely my interpretation, and the true situation could be different. But.

In general in the culture, this kind of meeting is not used for debate really, just used to pass pre-agreed items. The debate and concessions come before the meeting, during informal discussion, trading information through kohai, etc. Considering Hakuho tried to retire after last basho, there has been ample time to smooth things over internally and have consensus. Having voting oyakata still not in consensus would be HIGHLY irregular and worth reporting on, a Takanohana level event. The external member seems not to have been included in this consensus building probably because this vote seems completely immaterial. This member might even be banging the drum partially because their opinion is valued so little. More broadly I interpret that quote as 'Among oyakata, its already been agreed, so there's no problem, thanks' just to get ahead of the situation and diffuse it.

I think sometimes you'll see strong views from influential external members just because their power is limited in a way they don't like despite them donating a lot or giving out favors. Especially since these people have income because they have that kind of influence in other parts of their lives - being a company board member or president for example. So really their only option is to have a big mouth.

4 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Ok, I stand to be wrong again, but it was my understanding that the shikona was bestowed by the oyakata.

More as a nod to stories where Tobizaru was looking to embroider pillows with 'Flying Monkey' in English. Did he ask Tamawashi??

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Tsuchinoninjin

[Kintamayama 44,200]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Ok, I stand to be wrong again, but it was my understanding that the shikona was bestowed by the oyakata.

He has been embracing this shikona and all that comes with it, with monkeys on his yukata and the cushion with the monogram etc.. You are probably right that the oyakata bestowed it upon him, but i think he likes it as it really does encompass what he is -  he does fly a lot and monkeys are cute, I guess.

[Bombur 50]

Wow, this even made the national French-speaking TV news in Belgium the day it was announced (but the actual segment wasn't very good, still calling the wrestlers "sumos" and tipping Hakuho at 250 kg lol).

Edited September 29, 2021 by Bombur

[RabidJohn 1,629]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

He has been embracing this shikona and all that comes with it, with monkeys on his yukata and the cushion with the monogram etc.. You are probably right that the oyakata bestowed it upon him, but i think he likes it as it really does encompass what he is -  he does fly a lot and monkeys are cute, I guess.

Nothing wrong in making the most of what you've been given, nor unusual; most of the sensible rikishi seem to get involved in fan merch, so I'm assuming they get a worthwhile cut.

Maybe I'm just a bit annoyed that the author found Tobizaru's golden goose of a shikona annoying...

[Kintamayama 44,200]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Nothing wrong in making the most of what you've been given, nor unusual; most of the sensible rikishi seem to get involved in fan merch, so I'm assuming they get a worthwhile cut.

Rikishi don't get a dime from anything (fan merch etc..). All goes to the Kyokai. 

[808morgan 805]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Rikishi don't get a dime from anything (fan merch etc..). All goes to the Kyokai. 

Awww you mean when I would get the Kotoshogiku bento he wasn't making anything? Sad

[Reonito 1,295]

We've seen plenty of stats illustrating Hakuho's utter dominance, but here's one more set. Hakuho finished 65 basho as Yokozuna. In these 65, he took the yusho 42 times and the jun-yusho 17 times. That's 59 winner or runner-up finishes out of 65 completed tournaments (91%). He recorded double-digit wins in all 65, going 15-0 15 times, 14-1 22 times, 13-2 ten times, 12-3 ten times, 11-4 six times, and 10-5 just twice.

[specialweek 2 136]

Any news on a Hakuho press conference?

[themistyseas 222]

11 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Considering what @themistyseas said a bit ago about fans, I wonder if there are fans and there are fans. It seems that while the general public's only knowledge of sumo is Hakuho, and they have a favourable view of him, what passes for the intelligentsia amongst the sumo fans seem to have a pretty strong view against him - that includes the YDC and now, apparently, this odd external committee member.

I think that's more or less right. I was obviously being very general in my assessment, but I think with regards to the general public that holds. Now when you talk about the general public of sumo fans, especially elderly folks in the general public who go to Kokugikan, then I think you start to get interesting opinions and of course very interesting loyalties in terms of the rikishi who are supported. A lot of that comes down as we know to people's connections to various schools or sponsors or rikishi connections to various regions that someone might be from. Bringing that back to Hakuho, obviously he gets a wide swath of support for his cultural activities even if people don't always like the sumo, or still celebrate a kinboshi against him because it's such a special and rare event and a huge achievement you can say you were there for. Elderly fans who attend basho tend to be a lot longer in the memory than the hysterical crowd on sumo twitter (many of whom are new fans within the last few years anyway, not that there's anything wrong with that).

Small sample size, but when I talk to women in their 50s and 60s in the stands at a basho, I'm here to tell you that they really love Myogiryu. He's been around long enough that fans have been following him for years and uh... this demographic seems to find him especially handsome. Before anyone accuses me of chatting up the elderly Japanese female population, I'd clarify that I'd love to talk to anyone but normally - especially early in the day before Juryo - the elderly women at Kokugikan are more interested to have a conversation and most of the elderly men are nose deep in their scorecards and statistical analysis or amateur photography. I'm always really interested in talking to fans, mostly to learn more, also because the fan experience is part of what I do for a living. But there's a lot to be gained there about the sumo experience that we don't always get from the newspapers, and I think that may be reflected in the wide variety of opinions about Hakuho.

Edited September 30, 2021 by themistyseas

[Asashosakari 18,652]

About the more casual/new type of international fans, based mainly on what I've observed on Reddit,  though I suspect it's little different on Twitter or Facebook: One thing that I've found fascinating (and also a bit puzzling) over the last few years is how, the less Hakuho actually showed up for tournaments, the more of a fan favourite he seemed to become. A lot of it appeared to be based on some sort of reflexive anti-authority stance, Hakuho apparently being seen as this guy who doesn't give a shit about what those in charge think, and who just shows up to compete as he pleases, just because he can. That seemed to appeal to a lot of people. Nevermind that the only reason he was even capable of doing it is that those in charge are specifically permitting it through the rules they've set, but the analysis never goes that far.

I recall getting some pushback here a few months ago when I said I would welcome those fans dropping out of sight again. It really doesn't matter what I think about that anyway, though, since it's inevitable that it's going to happen, just like it happened after Asashoryu's departure, or any other retirement of a rikishi whose support is a mile wide and an inch deep. (The dropoff of all dropoffs is going to be Tochinoshin fans, I suspect; now that's a shallow fandom. Takanoyama would have been another one, but the big boom in international fandom came too late for that.) The big "thing" right now is people proclaiming how very interested they are in following Hakuho's path as a stablemaster; I'm rather doubtful they're going to find it as exciting as they envision it at the moment.

[Asashosakari 18,652]

And to contribute something to the thread beyond the self-absorbed waffle of the previous post, Nikkan states this morning that a Kyokai official has confirmed that Hakuho will be listed on the Kyushu banzuke after all, as the result of yesterday's banzuke-making conference, even though his retirement is expected to be acknowledged today.

[LLCoolKay 22]

The only sumo things I have had friends post on social media or heard on the local sports talk radio in the last few years were this and Tokushoryu winning the yusho. The radio guys were listing off the number of his accomplishments and were just amazed. The comparisons to Jordan were many.

42 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

About the more casual/new type of international fans, based mainly on what I've observed on Reddit,  though I suspect it's little different on Twitter or Facebook: One thing that I've found fascinating (and also a bit puzzling) over the last few years is how, the less Hakuho actually showed up for tournaments, the more of a fan favourite he seemed to become. A lot of it appeared to be based on some sort of reflexive anti-authority stance, Hakuho apparently being seen as this guy who doesn't give a shit about what those in charge think, and who just shows up to compete as he pleases, just because he can. That seemed to appeal to a lot of people. Nevermind that the only reason he was even capable of doing it is that those in charge are specifically permitting it through the rules they've set, but the analysis never goes that far.

I recall getting some pushback here a few months ago when I said I would welcome those fans dropping out of sight again. It really doesn't matter what I think about that anyway, though, since it's inevitable that it's going to happen, just like it happened after Asashoryu's departure, or any other retirement of a rikishi whose support is a mile wide and an inch deep. (The dropoff of all dropoffs is going to be Tochinoshin fans, I suspect; now that's a shallow fandom. Takanoyama would have been another one, but the big boom in international fandom came too late for that.) The big "thing" right now is people proclaiming how very interested they are in following Hakuho's path as a stablemaster; I'm rather doubtful they're going to find it as exciting as they envision it at the moment.

I agree that it seems that a lot of the fan base seems to have started viewing Hakuho through strange rose tinted glasses. It wasn't too terribly long ago that people were complaining that his dominance was hurting the sport, stifling growth.

[yorikiried by fate 1,987]

56 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

And to contribute something to the thread beyond the self-absorbed waffle of the previous post, Nikkan states this morning that a Kyokai official has confirmed that Hakuho will be listed on the Kyushu banzuke after all, as the result of yesterday's banzuke-making conference, even though his retirement is expected to be acknowledged today.

Which leads to the question, if he will be listed at Y1e, what with COVID and no rank disadvantage etc. Sorry if that was discussed before and/or elsewhere.

[Godango 956]

18 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Which leads to the question, if he will be listed at Y1e, what with COVID and no rank disadvantage etc. Sorry if that was discussed before and/or elsewhere.

He wouldn't have been Y1e, especially with Terunofuji winning the yusho. E/W Yokozuna is really not a demotion in the scheme of things, and there is precedent in an E/W switch with COVID kyujo's. Enho was even demoted a full rank after Hatsu.

[Jemuzu 34]

4 hours ago, Reonito said:

We've seen plenty of stats illustrating Hakuho's utter dominance, but here's one more set. Hakuho finished 65 basho as Yokozuna. In these 65, he took the yusho 42 times and the jun-yusho 17 times. That's 59 winner or runner-up finishes out of 65 completed tournaments (91%). He recorded double-digit wins in all 65, going 15-0 15 times, 14-1 22 times, 13-2 ten times, 12-3 ten times, 11-4 six times, and 10-5 just twice.

Surprising the YDC didn’t recommend retirement after the 10-5s

[Kintamayama 44,200]

5 hours ago, 808morgan said:

Awww you mean when I would get the Kotoshogiku bento he wasn't making anything? Sad

But true. Some people think they do, but they don’t. Sad. But true.

[Kintamayama 44,200]

Still waiting for the formal announcement. In the meantime, some background. There is a problem with acknowledging Hakuhou's Magaki name. "The decision is definitely not unanimous. I'm not saying he won't be acknowledged in the end, but still.. " said someone who was present during the discussions. Until 2014, the rijikai decided on these matters. Then the Kyokai went public and since then, there is a "Judging Committee " comprised of one delegate from each ichimon and an outsider-six people in all. They reach a decision, they notify the rijikai, and the decision is then finalized. Apparently, it's not going as smoothly as usual, with some members raising the hinkaku question.  OTOH, other related people are saying the rijikai will have the final say and that there is no chance that his new name won't be recognized. As for the ichidai-toshiyori question, it was not mentioned. The papers are also saying Hakuhou plans on establishing his own heya and taking his guys with him after the current Miyagino reaches retirement age in August. No mention so far of inheriting the Miyagino name, or t least I haven't seen anything.

[Kintamayama 44,200]

Intai recognized, Magaki name recognized. Official. 

[Seiyashi 4,068]

5 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Intai recognized, Magaki name recognized. Official. 

Any conditions? There was this article suggesting some sort of restraint on his ability to own a heya or to penalise him for any gaffes: https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2021/09/30/0014720255.shtml

[yorikiried by fate 1,987]

2 hours ago, Godango said:

He wouldn't have been Y1e, especially with Terunofuji winning the yusho. E/W Yokozuna is really not a demotion in the scheme of things, and there is precedent in an E/W switch with COVID kyujo's. Enho was even demoted a full rank after Hatsu.

So that again means by listing him once more, even though he declared his intai, his last ranking won't be at the topmost rank.

Which doesn't have to be another deliberate jab [no COVID pun intended], but is at least another collateral putdown [no euthanasia pun intended].

[Seiyashi 4,068]

1 minute ago, yorikiried by fate said:

So that again means by listing him once more, even though he declared his intai, his last ranking won't be at the topmost rank.

Which doesn't have to be another deliberate jab [no COVID pun intended], but is at least another collateral putdown [no euthanasia pun intended].

He won't be the first or last to not be listed at Y1E in his retirement. When a subcommittee is considering attaching strings to his kabu assumption, whether he's Y1E or Y1W seems to be reading way too much into an insignficance.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Seiyashi

[orandashoho 720]

Maybe it was just to keep the right number. 42, you know, the Answer to Everything.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

14 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Any conditions? There was this article suggesting some sort of restraint on his ability to own a heya or to penalise him for any gaffes: https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2021/09/30/0014720255.shtml

As far as the article by Sports Hochi and Mainichi, they did not specify further conditions or probation. I think we might be looking at a press conference either tonight or tomorrow and maybe find out for certain.