Yoshikaze situation

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 02/10/2019 at 13:04, Otokonoyama said:

 

Yoshikaze (Nakamura) is now suing his hometown Saiki for damages: "I'm not blaming someone in particular, I don't hate anybody. I have been told by the mayor, they'll do what they can." The attorneys of both sides had discussed about compensation and the oyakata wanted an amicable settlement, but now it developed into a case at the Tokyo district court. http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202010190001021.html

Suing for a total of 480 million yen http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASNBM73N6NBMTIPE027.html

Edited October 19, 2020 by Akinomaki

[since_94 650]

I’m a Yoshikaze fan (how can one not be?) and the reported facts are admittedly rather thin on the ground. However, I have a question and an observation.

The question: is he suing for lost revenue, pain and suffering, medical and rehab expenses, punitive  damages, or what? If it’s lost income, how long did he honestly expect to be able to continue fighting if this happened in 2018 and he’s 38 now? He stepped right into a job as an oyakata post-retirement.

The observation : suing your hometown is not a good look for a former pro athlete.

[RabidJohn 1,634]

4 minutes ago, since_94 said:

If it’s lost income, how long did he honestly expect to be able to continue fighting ...? 

The observation : suing your hometown is not a good look for a former pro athlete.

Divide 480M by Yoshikaze's estimated annual income for a starting point.

As I understand it, he was injured during a PR exercise for the town, so it's basically suing an employer for an injury sustained at work. In itself that's a fairly straightforward and commonplace thing*. That it hasn't been settled out of court is very unusual, however. Something's gone wrong, and yes, it does put him in an awkward position in terms of public perception.

*I had to make a similar claim against British Coal when I was a miner, and the process went just as workmates told me it would. I filled out a form in the Union office. A few weeks later the British Coal and NUM lawyers, no doubt ensconced cosily with tea and biscuits, had come to an agreement about who was at fault (actually how much was I at fault, expressed as a percentage) and how much to pay me. My Union rep advised me to reject the offer, which I did. Another couple of weeks after that came the second, higher offer which I accepted.

It would only have gone to court had I rejected the second offer. That would have been dreadfully bad form on my part, not to mention the risk of publicly exposing the fact that it was all my own stupid fault for being where I was when the 'accident' happened!

[Seiyashi 4,068]

Considering their choice of career, rikishi are probably not insured. But if they are, some of these suits can be brought because of the insurers (both the rikishi's insurers and the town's insurers?) disagreeing rather than the involved persons themselves. At least in the common-law world, these suits are brought in the name of the involved parties but are really conducted by the insurers and their attorneys; the parties themselves receive the payouts from the insurers first and then the insurers go to court to apportion the loss amongst themselves. I agree it's not a good look, but the reality is probably less acrimonious than it seems.

[Akinomaki 39,548]

22 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Yoshikaze (Nakamura) is now suing his hometown Saiki for damages: "I'm not blaming someone in particular, I don't hate anybody. I have been told by the mayor, they'll do what they can." The attorneys of both sides had discussed about compensation and the oyakata wanted an amicable settlement, but now it developed into a case at the Tokyo district court. http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202010190001021.html

Suing for a total of 480 million yen http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASNBM73N6NBMTIPE027.html

The unsuccessful attorney discussion went this way:

The Yoshikaze side lawyers had claimed the injury happened at a PR activity for Saiki-city, the city side denied that, saying it was not publicized and was no PR event - local NHK news clip http://www3.nhk.or.jp/lnews/oita/20201020/5070008211.html

[RabidJohn 1,634]

That sheds some light.

Have we seen footage/photos of the incident? I'd have thought something would've surfaced by now if it was a PR stunt.

[Yamanashi 3,687]

Without knowing the inside scoop, but reading what's been posted here, it sounds like the Mayor felt bad about Yoshikaze's injury (and as a politician didn't want the public to blame his office) so he made the offer of a "friendly" suit.  Meanwhile, the lawyers in the Legal Division got their backs up and (quite rightly) didn't want to establish a precedent.  So it gets awkward for Yoshikaze and the Mayor.

[Godango 956]

Interesting timing, I literally just left my lawyers office yesterday for the beginning of the legal process regarding a workplace injury from about 18 months ago. Also to my knee, and also kind of recreational at the workplace. 

Anyway, I digress. Is it confirmed that that amount he's suing for is purely for lost future revenue? Using my claim as a base, the components typically are:

• General Damages (pain and suffering)
  • Beyond the physical, the psychological impact of losing your long career overnight would be somewhat traumatic, also.
• Lost income
• Rehabilitation and Medical Costs already borne by the claimant (Yoshikaze)
• Future economic loss (this is where the 'how long was he going to be a Rikishi' for argument would come in)
  • That said; he's a professional athlete.
    • Will this injury stop him participating in physically training deshi? If so, how long?
    • How about the 'old boy' matches?
    • Future paid PA opportunities of this nature? It goes on.
• Future medical/rehabilitation costs
  • This could be the big one, we don't know how bad his injury was. Will he require future treatments/surgeries.

There's probably more I'm forgetting and there are arguably differences in the laws between here in Australia and Japan, but the point is there are many factors.

I also imagine like in all negotiations he's asking for the higher end and expects to be met somewhere in the middle.

More power to him though; it's so awkward/stressful and I feel physically ill every time I'm talking to the lawyer; and I'm just some random guy. Being in the public arena and facing public scrutiny/backlash would be awful.

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 20/10/2020 at 15:16, Akinomaki said:

The Yoshikaze side lawyers had claimed the injury happened at a PR activity for Saiki-city, the city side denied that, saying it was not publicized and was no PR event

Fuji TV Viking today started (after 5 min cats) with a 40min special about the Yoshikaze court case youtube_query=バイキング 2020年10月21日

One who was concerned with the matter at the time recalls that visiting the site was on the schedule of Yoshikaze that day during the training camp in Saiki, but not the canyoning. So the one at the location who made him do it will get the blame. On the official (very general) schedule the city had published about the whole camp event, that day the visit was not listed, no PR event at all, but the whole camp was also a regular PR event for the city by their PR ambassador Yoshikaze.

8 rikishi from the heya and a instructors were at the Fujigawachi valley http://saiki-kankou.com/en/tour/detail?id=6

 - and officials from the city. They apparently had discussed the schedule of Yoshikaze 3 times before the start of the camp and the visit to the valley was on it, just not the canyoning - but if there had been no injury, the city surely would have used the whole thing for PR. Anyway, Yoshikaze shouldn't have taken part in the dangerous activity - talk was that he also had no helmet.

Not just the city alone, apparently also several individuals and especially the promoter company of the canyoning are sued.

The city may only pay any bigger amount, using tax payers money and needing the OK of the city assembly, if there is a proper court case to justify it. The sum is of course only some maximum justifiable amount, in the end there will likely be less than half of it.

- and the citizens honor award of Yoshikaze might be revoked as a result

On 24/11/2015 at 15:43, Akinomaki said:

Yoshikaze received the citizen honor award of his hometown Saiki-city, Oita
o
from the mayor

edit: yesterday TBS GogoSmile had 8 min. on it, 2:55h JST: youtube_query=ゴゴスマ 2020年10月20日

Edited October 26, 2020 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 21/10/2020 at 10:12, Akinomaki said:

visiting the site was on the schedule of Yoshikaze that day during the training camp in Saiki, but not the canyoning.

On the official (very general) schedule the city had published about the whole camp event, that day the visit was not listed, no PR event at all, but the whole camp was also a regular PR event for the city by their PR ambassador Yoshikaze.

On 26/06/2019 at 21:11, Akinomaki said:

the Oguruma welcome to Saiki

o

8 rikishi from the heya and an instructor were at the Fujigawachi valley http://saiki-kankou.com/en/tour/detail?id=6

 - and one official from the city. They apparently had discussed the schedule of Yoshikaze 3 times before the start of the camp and the visit to the valley was on it, just not the canyoning - but if there had been no injury, the city surely would have used the whole thing for PR.

edit: yesterday TBS GogoSmile had 8 min. on it, 2:55h JST: youtube_query=ゴゴスマ 2020年10月20日

The city in January had received a letter from Yoshikaze with the demand for damages, they sent the reply in June, claiming that the city has no responsibility.

Today the city declared to go through with it at court from that viewpoint: "It was the strong personal wish of the man himself (Yoshikaze)" to go on that canyoning tour.

On 21/10/2020 at 10:12, Akinomaki said:

Not just the city alone, apparently also several individuals and especially the promoter company of the canyoning are sued.

Yoshikaze demands restitution from the city, several city staff members who were involved in the training camp, the tour operating company and the instructors. (Sued are 3 juridical and 7 private persons o)

The first hearing at the Tokyo district court will be on Nov. 27th.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/20201021-OYT1T50201/

The about 481 million are based on lost income of an active career till age 40, damages for having to go kyujo, compensation for injury after effects, consolation money etc. http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASNBP6T87NBPTPJB00F.html

Edited October 23, 2020 by Akinomaki

[Churaumi 725]

Does anyone have any insight into how long this kind of suit takes to resolve? In the US this would take years.

[Akinomaki 39,548]

1 hour ago, Churaumi said:

Does anyone have any insight into how long this kind of suit takes to resolve? In the US this would take years.

Going through with it till the end will take maybe twice as long in Japan. But usually they agree to some settlement out of court after a while.

[since_94 650]

So...tax hike coming in Saiki-city? 

[Churaumi 725]

5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Going through with it till the end will take maybe twice as long in Japan. But usually they agree to some settlement out of court after a while.

So...I'll check back on this in 2025...

[yohcun 393]

Nakamura-beya's gonna need a lot of money. Hopefully this doesn't affect the supporters he already has.

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 21/10/2020 at 10:12, Akinomaki said:

Fuji TV Viking today started (after 5 min cats) with a 40min special about the Yoshikaze court case youtube_query=バイキング 2020年10月21日

One who was concerned with the matter at the time recalls that visiting the site was on the schedule of Yoshikaze that day during the training camp in Saiki, but not the canyoning.

8 rikishi from the heya and an instructor were at the Fujigawachi valley http://saiki-kankou.com/en/tour/detail?id=6

 - and one official from the city.

The city may only pay any bigger amount, using tax payers money and needing the OK of the city assembly, if there is a proper court case to justify it. The sum is of course only some maximum justifiable amount, in the end there will likely be less than half of it.

Today Fuji TV's Tokudane show had a special on the Yoshikaze case youtube_query=とくダネ！ 2020年10月23日 (8:36-8:52h JST)

Like Viking with comments by a lawyer and Reiko Yokono as sumo reporter. This time they reported about the city side, reactions and comments, details on the event and the location of the accident. The Yoshikaze side lawyers had replied to their questions: "We can't reply".

The city said there was no request by Yoshikaze to film the canyoning, there was no intention to use the thing as PR, it was purely private. The year before, the city had apparently proposed canyoning as one activity for the spare time - it is a main tourist attraction of Saiki (English page) and thus an obvious thing to do, also for PR. 2018 the canyoning had to be canceled due to rain, and for the spare time of the day of the accident, it was natural that Yoshikaze asked to have it now. The city person who was with them and the fact that the city payed the bill for the canyoning tour shows that it was not just a private occasion - the whole camp event was for city PR. Both sides have some responsibility. The assessment by the lawyer therefore was that the thing will end in a court mediated settlement.

Yokono made an estimate of 17 million yen income difference per year (sanyaku as rank vs. oyakata, both with extras).

Edited October 23, 2020 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn 1,634]

9 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

... 2018 the canyoning had to be canceled due to rain ...

The one and only time I did this bloody foolish activity it was snowing! You're gonna get wet anyway, so what difference does it make?

My excuse is: I was very young (20) and it was during one of those team-building courses for work.

Yoshikaze was 36 and should have known better than to take the risk. That's got to count against him in the claim.

However, I believe the city paying for the canyoning makes it an implied term of Yoshikaze's contract with them (i.e. in keeping with everything else he does that they pay for), so someone's in bother for not saying no to him because it's going to cost them even more in the long run.

[RabidJohn 1,634]

5 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

My excuse is: I was very young (20) ...

Yoshikaze was 36 and should have known better ...

I posted that, then I looked at my avatar and realised what a sodding hypocrite I am. The things we did to catch those fish from the Kaveri in southern India went way beyond canyoning! A bit off topic, but...

In 2001, when I was 36, I hopped into a coracle expecting to be ferried across the pool we'd been fishing so we could walk back to camp along the easier path. Halfway across the guide unexpectedly turned the flimsy, hide-covered basket and went down the chute at the exit of the pool, a 6ft drop between narrow rock walls into a half-mile long rapid, all white water and rocks.

No life jackets, btw, and this was 2hrs after sunset - it was done by starlight only!

We got back to camp sooner than we'd have imagined, and all the other Indian guides pissed themselves laughing as ours told his tale.

I'd say it's easily the most dangerously risky thing I've ever done, but it was also wildly exhilarating.

We did it again - several times.

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 21/10/2020 at 15:57, Akinomaki said:

The city in January had received a letter from Yoshikaze with the demand for damages, they sent the reply in June, claiming that the city has no responsibility.

Today the city declared to go through with it at court from that viewpoint: "It was the strong personal wish of the man himself (Yoshikaze)" to go on that canyoning tour.

Yoshikaze demands restitution from the city, several city staff members who were involved in the training camp, the tour operating company and the instructors. (Sued are 3 juridical and 7 private persons o)

The tabloid Nikkan gendai interviewed a Saiki local witness http://www.nikkan-gendai.com/articles/view/sports/280339/2

For the 8 rikishi, 3 instructors and 4 city staff members were at the location of the accident (in Japanese you may never know if a word is plural or singular) - apparently those are the 7 individuals sued. They had not much time and picked a short, enjoyable and safe 15min. canyoning course - the full one is 90 min., with deep water, where in the last 10 years since they do this, nobody ever got injured. Yoshikaze may got injured as he hit the water surface. He was brought to a hospital with a helicopter ambulance.

- in August the doctors had told him they can't say how long it may take to recover (sth. in the line of Tomokaze) - that made him decide to retire (Tokudane)

The heya also won't comment: "He has handed it over to the attorneys".

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 21/10/2020 at 15:57, Akinomaki said:

The city in January had received a letter from Yoshikaze with the demand for damages, they sent the reply in June, claiming that the city has no responsibility.

Today the city declared to go through with it at court from that viewpoint: "It was the strong personal wish of the man himself (Yoshikaze)" to go on that canyoning tour.

Yoshikaze demands restitution from the city, several city staff members who were involved in the training camp, the tour operating company and the instructors. (Sued are 3 juridical and 7 private persons o)

The about 481 million are based on lost income of an active career till age 40, damages for having to go kyujo, compensation for injury after effects, consolation money etc. http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASNBP6T87NBPTPJB00F.html

Today again Viking reported about the Yoshikaze case youtube_query=バイキング 2020年10月26日   - 2:00-2:35hJST

This time with 2 lawyers in the studio.

Not only without helmet, Yoshikaze did the canyoning also without the proper safety suit. Talk from witnesses: because there was no protection gear his size, the promoter company at first refused, and Yoshikaze was being warned by the instructors at the location, but replied: "No problem, we are tough, I/we want to do it." At the presumed safe place, he did the slide down the small water canyon with 2 junior deshi in safety gear in front and behind - and got injured.

The city made some promises about payment from insurance, but when in January no money arrived, Yoshikaze entrusted the case to his lawyers. The first letter to the city demanded a sum bigger than the 480 million in the lawsuit now.

The after effects from the injury are severe, he still can't walk properly. He wants to have his own heya and train with the deshi, but in his present state he can't do sumo with them on the dohyo, not even with his kid on the danpatsushiki dohyo (whenever that may be). This also will limit his career in the NSK - he can't be shimpan, can't easily step onto the dohyo for a mono-ii conference.

 

The Weekly Post quotes an NSK related person about the expectations that Takekaze (Oshiogawa) will take over Oguruma-beya when the oyakata retires in 2 years and Yoshikaze (Nakamura) will branch out at the same time, needing about 200-300 million yen to build his own heya premises. http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20201026_1607066.html

He can't have an intai-zumo in the near future to collect funds, but if he loses his local support, his heya plan may be doomed from the start.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Akinomaki

[Churaumi 725]

There's plenty of shipman who have trouble getting up to mono-ii, but I do suspect that has more to do with legs gone to sleep than the physical deficits brought on by a sumo lifestyle...

[serge_gva 52]

On 23/10/2020 at 11:08, RabidJohn said:

The one and only time I did this bloody foolish activity it was snowing! You're gonna get wet anyway, so what difference does it make?

I don't know the place, but threatening or rainy weather is the worst thing that can happen when canyoning. A thunderstorm at the headwaters of the river can cause a violent flash flood that can have disastrous consequences (unfortunately this happens quite frequently).

6 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Not only without helmet, Yoshikaze did the canyoning also without the proper safety suit. Talk from witnesses: because there was no protection gear his size, the promoter company at first refused, and Yoshikaze was being warned by the instructors at the location, but replied: "No problem, we are tough, I/we want to do it." At the presumed safe place, he did the slide down the small water canyon with 2 junior deshi in safety gear in front and behind - and got injured.

I know, of course, that it's certainly more complicated than that from a legal point of view, but if things really happened as these witnesses say, there comes a time when you have to recognize that activities in the mountains are subject to natural risks. If an adult decides to take them, he or she must assume a minimum of responsibility.

Japan is already so reluctant to let people exercise their free will and make exceptions... I may stray a bit from the subject, but trials of this type, sumo star involved or not, lead to regrettable drifts that gradually lead to de-responsibilization of people in the mountains (or in outdoor sports) and a disneylandisation of this space of freedom.

Edited October 26, 2020 by serge_gva

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 149]

6 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Not only without helmet, Yoshikaze did the canyoning also without the proper safety suit. Talk from witnesses: because there was no protection gear his size, the promoter company at first refused, and Yoshikaze was being warned by the instructors at the location, but replied: "No problem, we are tough, I/we want to do it." At the presumed safe place, he did the slide down the small water canyon with 2 junior deshi in safety gear in front and behind - and got injured.

That definitely sounds like he's at fault here. for his own sake, he should not take this court.

[Akinomaki 39,548]

Yoshikaze may soon be running out of money.

Apart from the lawyers to whom he entrusted the Oita court case, he'll also have to pay the lawyers to whom he entrusted his  divorce case. After a matrimonial quarrel where his wife had called the police, he went with his 2 children to his parent's house in Oita for a while and now has rent a 2nd apartment house to live with them in Tokyo, separated from his wife. With a divorce, he will not only lose a good deal of his property, he also will have no okamisan for a new heya anymore. http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20201106_1609988.html

The future does not look good for Yoshikaze

[Akinomaki 39,548]

On 23/10/2020 at 10:39, Akinomaki said:

The city said there was no request by Yoshikaze to film the canyoning, there was no intention to use the thing as PR, it was purely private. The year before, the city had apparently proposed canyoning as one activity for the spare time - it is a main tourist attraction of Saiki (English page) and thus an obvious thing to do, also for PR. 2018 the canyoning had to be canceled due to rain, and for the spare time of the day of the accident, it was natural that Yoshikaze asked to have it now. The city person who was with them and the fact that the city payed the bill for the canyoning tour shows that it was not just a private occasion - the whole camp event was for city PR. Both sides have some responsibility. The assessment by the lawyer therefore was that the thing will end in a court mediated settlement.

Today were the first hearings of the Yoshikaze case, all out confrontation so far, a settlement may take a long time.

The Yoshikaze side: "The city staff and others had the duty to guarantee safety, but they neglected it." 

The city side: "The invitation to the training camp was for PR reasons, but going down the canyon was a private matter, we have no responsibility of compensation for the injuries."

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20201127/sum20112711370002-n1.html