Nagoya 2019 Discussion (here be spoilers)

[Philioyamfugi 378]

Well the drama builds...Takayasu looks done, Hakaho losses and Kakaryuu looking solid... going to be an exciting finish...go Kakaryuu! !

 

[Amamaniac 2,078]

1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

That would imply aiming for losses after his eighth win. Even a 9-6 would probably put him right into the meatgrinder with all the same opponents as Komusubi have.

Of course, you are right about that.  Perhaps it's just me, but I have always had the impression that some wrestlers (i.e., Kyokutenho) fight less hard once they have their kachikoshis, so that they can stay in the Top Division, not have to fight tougher opponents, and avoid serious injury.  A "career before glory" strategy?

Edited July 15, 2019 by Amamaniac

[robnplunder 974]

45 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Of course, you are right about that.  Perhaps it's just me, but I have always had the impression that some wrestlers (i.e., Kyokutenho) fight less hard once they have their kachikoshis, so that they can stay in the Top Division, not have to fight tougher opponents, and avoid serious injury.  A "career before glory" strategy?

IMO, that has to be a special circumstance when a rikishi is nursing an injury but KK'd already.   I can see such rikishi doing just well enough to avoid injury.  This happens in other sports, too.   But I'd bet my last drop of Japanese green tea that most top athletes will do their best to win once they are on the spotlight.   Of course, there'd be exceptions.   You mentioned Kyokutenho as an example.   At one point, I suspected Ichinojo to manage his ranking so that he doesn't want to be in the meat grinder (M1, M2).

[Eikokurai 3,433]

5 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Ozeki potential for sure.  I've been watching every basho since Mitakeumi's was in juryo.   Since then, I've seen many young rikishi rising up fast to Makuuchi level.  Of those who made the "rise," only Takakeisho has made the Ozeki rank.  All others have come and stalled.   Having said that, I think Tomokaze has the most potential to become Ozenki.   Let's not even mention the 'Y' word.  No one from college rank ever made it that far if I remember correctly.

54th Yokozuna Wajima was a double university champion who entered sumo as a makushita tsukedashi and went on to win 14 yusho.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

8 hours ago, Andonishiki said:

Hello statistic freaks... 

I would like to see the number of kinboshi Hakuho allowed in the last, let’s say 60 basho and how many percent of those went to fellow countrymen... Mongolians, that is.

my wild guess is between 75-85%

just wondering

You’ve already been given the numbers, so I’ll just add that for most of Hakuho’s time in sumo several of the Mongolians have been among the strongest rikishi around and so usually at ranks where kinboshi aren’t awarded. If the likes of Kakuryu and Harumafuji failed to beat him as hiramaku during their rise to the top, they wouldn’t have one. Tamawashi and Terunofuji have faced Hakuho more as K/S/O than as Maegashira. The less-successful likes of Arawashi, Takanoiwa, Chiyoshoma, Shotenro and Takusegawa only had brief spells in the joi and thus not much opportunity to get kinboshi. Asasekiryu, Tokitenku, Kyokutenho and Ichinojo probably had/have had the most chances as they were/have been in the upper hiramaku ranks more than junior sanyaku for their Hakuho bouts, but the first three of those met the GOAT when he was in his prime. Add to all of this the fact that Mongolians, while successful, are actually still very much a minority group in sumo. Hakuho has fought only 66 bouts as a Yokozuna against Mongolian Maegashira. Unless something dodgy goes on like yaocho for his compatriots, it’s mathematically quite unlikely that 80% of Hakuho’s kinboshi losses would be to Mongolians. At the end of the day, it’s all a numbers game.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&rowcount=2&shikona1=Hakuho&rank1=Y&shusshin2=59&rank2=M

Edited July 16, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Yubinhaad 11,506]

Kyodo reporting Aminishiki has retired.

[Rocks 1,805]

41 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Kyodo reporting Aminishiki has retired.

End of an era.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

48 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Kyodo reporting Aminishiki has retired.

悲喜こもごも ...

[Gurowake 3,886]

Hakuho vs. Takayasu scheduled Day 11, when all reason would have suggested it be on Day 13.  Conspiracy Theory: Hakuho said he's going to withdraw, but they convinced him to fight another day and scheduled this match to get Takayasu his 8th win so he can withdraw too

Edited July 16, 2019 by Gurowake

[Onibushou 61]

Time for some well deserved rest for the dai-wily man.

[WAKATAKE 2,624]

Nikkan as well. 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201907160000231.html

The last man to defeat Takanohana. 

[Rocks 1,805]

47 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Hakuho vs. Takayasu scheduled Day 11, when all reason would have suggested it be on Day 13.  Conspiracy Theory: Hakuho said he's going to withdraw, but they convinced him to fight another day and scheduled this match to get Takayasu his 8th win so he can withdraw too

Alternate conspiracy theory. Hakuho says he is tired and talks about withdrawing if he gets another defeat soon. They schedule him against Takyasu because they figure even 1 handed he'll beat Meisei giving Hakuho a day of rest on Day 11. But Tamawashi throws a wrench in the works by beating Hakuho.  On Day 11 both Hakuho and Tanyasu withdraw giving us the first Draw in 80 years or whatever it is. 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

Nikkan as well. 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201907160000231.html

The last man to defeat Takanohana. 

*in the ring

[robnplunder 974]

3 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

Kyodo reporting Aminishiki has retired.

A year too late ....  

[Sakura 1,463]

3 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Hakuho vs. Takayasu scheduled Day 11, when all reason would have suggested it be on Day 13.  Conspiracy Theory: Hakuho said he's going to withdraw, but they convinced him to fight another day and scheduled this match to get Takayasu his 8th win so he can withdraw too

I was actually expecting Hakuho-Takayasu on Day 11.

Since Hakuho is the lower ranked Yokozuna he gets to have his Sanyaku bouts completed/scheduled before Kakuryu does. Assuming no withdrawals there would be 3 intra-sanyaku bouts on Day 15 (Kakuryu - Hakuho, Takayasu - Mitakeumi and Tamawashi-Abi), 2 on Day 14 (Kakuryu - Takayasu and Hakuho - Mitakeumi) and 1 on the remaining days. 

[Jakusotsu 5,757]

I'd love to see Tsurugisho take the yusho. He's the perennial Juryo mainstay flying completely under everyone's radar who took me a while to root for, but I do.

[robnplunder 974]

Takagenji suddenly looking like a Juryo contestant, amazingly losing the last 5 of 6 ....   He may have to put a mole on his face and switch place with Takanofuji (of course, Takanofuji has to remove his mole).  I don't think fans can tell the difference.  

Wow!  How Endo stayed on his feet against Kotoshogiku's onslaught was amazing!   Good win for Endo and tough loss for 'giku.   

Edited July 16, 2019 by robnplunder

[Eikokurai 3,433]

Where did that Myogiryu kachikoshi come from? I hadn’t noticed he’d been accumulating wins. Because he was only 3-2 after five days I thought he was a bit off form, but he’s surged and now tied in third. Nice.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Kakuryu maintains his lead in this tournament with a win over fellow Mongolian and fellow back-pain sufferer Ichinojo in what I am dubbing the "Broke Back Mountain" bout.  Ichinojo missed his opportunity to get back-to-back (another pun) kinboshi gold stars!!! 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Eikokurai 3,433]

4 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Kakuryu maintains his lead in this tournament with a win over fellow Mongolian and fellow back-pain sufferer Ichinojo in what I am dubbing the "Broke Back Mountain" bout.  Ichinojo missed his opportunity to get back-to-back (another pun) kinboshi gold stars!!! 

Well, that just throws up all sorts of imagery about the goings-on in the shitakubeya.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

18 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Well, that just throws up all sorts of imagery about the goings-on in the shitakubeya.

No wonder my Irish Catholic brother-in-law calls ozumo ...

Spoiler

"big-boy porn"

Hope that doesn't spoil sumo for some of the more sensitive forum users... 

 

[Morty 1,480]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Where did that Myogiryu kachikoshi come from? I hadn’t noticed he’d been accumulating wins. Because he was only 3-2 after five days I thought he was a bit off form, but he’s surged and now tied in third. Nice.

I suspect he is completely healthy for the first time in a long time. This is the kind of sumo he used to do three or four years ago. Really pleased, he has always been a favourite.

[Morty 1,480]

Enho's opponents should go back and watch how Kagayaki dealt with him. They are all so tentative and desperate not to let him get on the belt that they either go out backwards too fast (eg Takagenji) or do what Nishikigi did today, which is flail around a bit trying to stop Enho getting on his belt, until Enho got on his belt. By contrast Kagayaki didn't worry in the slightest about stopping Enho getting his belt. Instead he went with the "I'm a foot taller and 30 kilos heavier so I'm just going to smash him" which worked a treat. This is how Aioyama wins half his bouts, by simply being bigger than his opponent and taking advantage of that fact by using his reach and whacking them hard. I am only a little guy like Enho so I wish him all the best and I hope he keeps winning and ends up doing a Mienoumi, but every time I see him beat someone who is worrying way too much about him making them look foolish, I just think they should stop worrying about stopping him getting the belt and just start monstering him with their size advantage. Yes he is extremely skillful, but half of them are helping him beat them by not doing their own sumo.

[ALAKTORN 346]

16 hours ago, Dwale said:

Yeah, I was agreeing with you, up to a point. Also, I never heard anyone say "Well, if Ichinojo's back had been healthy..." whenever the match went the other way.

Probably because Ichinojō isn’t the greatest rikishi of all time. lol

I was simply explaining why Hakuhō lost. It’s the first basho in his career where he’s sporting double elbow supporters– he’s at his most broken yet. His career might not last much longer. You could tell during the bout that Hakuhō tried using his right (IIRC) to break Ichinojō’s grip but just couldn’t muster enough strength to do so.

I’m not trying to take anything away from Ichinojō, I’m simply giving a technical explanation of the bout. I don’t know why you’re all attacking me as if I said some blasphemy against Ichinojō. If angry Ichinojō was his default state (healthy back? who knows), he’d easily be yokozuna, we all know he’s good when he wants to be.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

35 minutes ago, Morty said:

Enho's opponents should go back and watch how Kagayaki dealt with him. They are all so tentative and desperate not to let him get on the belt that they either go out backwards too fast (eg Takagenji) or do what Nishikigi did today, which is flail around a bit trying to stop Enho getting on his belt, until Enho got on his belt. By contrast Kagayaki didn't worry in the slightest about stopping Enho getting his belt. Instead he went with the "I'm a foot taller and 30 kilos heavier so I'm just going to smash him" which worked a treat. This is how Aioyama wins half his bouts, by simply being bigger than his opponent and taking advantage of that fact by using his reach and whacking them hard. I am only a little guy like Enho so I wish him all the best and I hope he keeps winning and ends up doing a Mienoumi, but every time I see him beat someone who is worrying way too much about him making them look foolish, I just think they should stop worrying about stopping him getting the belt and just start monstering him with their size advantage. Yes he is extremely skillful, but half of them are helping him beat them by not doing their own sumo.

What I saw is Nishikigi try and fail to get his favoured kime grip. He’s unusual in that he likes to lock up his aite’s arms around the elbow or bicep, and then lift to deny his opponent power. Unfortunately, today he only managed the kime on the right arm and Enho, being a short arse in sumo terms, was able to stay low enough that Nishikigi couldn’t get to the left.