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Nagoya 2019 Discussion (here be spoilers)

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48 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Yesterday he went too far, and even he realized it. He toned it down considerably following the matta, and kept the tone down for the following match.

And yes, of course this is all trivial and none of it matters one iota in the great scheme of things, but it is after all a sumo forum, and this is the kind of stuff that we discuss just for the hell of it :-)

Hell, yeah?!  ;-)   I shouldn't take internet forums too seriously, I shouldn't take internet forums too seriously,  I shouldn't take ....

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

Today, Kimura Konosuke so disturbed the wrestlers with his incessant screaming every 3 seconds for them to put their hands down that he actually broke their concentration and caused them to stand back up.

No matter how loudly he screamed at them, neither Meisei nor Hokutofuji got both hands on the ground at the tach-ai. I think that possibly after several more mattas,  they both would have gotten the idea that the gyoji wanted both hands touching the dohyo and they probably eventually would have done so. But if it took that long to happen, people would have blamed the gyoji for unnecessarily prolonging the match. The problem is that the rikishis were at fault, not the gyoji. Kimura Konosuke was only trying to enforce a rule that apparently no one else seems to care about. It must be be extremely frustrating for a referee to try enforcing a rule which apparently is virtually ignored. 

Edited by sekitori

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Posted (edited)

This idea that a gyoji or a referee or an umpire or an official should suspend the rules rather than be the focus of attention loses me every time.  "Fans come to see the athletes, not the officials" is a BS argument, since nobody will come if the rules are not applied fairly to all.  Konosuke has been consistently scheduled in the slot around the newsbreak and is very aware of the time available to keep the schedule flowing as it should.  Last night's case looked more like an episode of "To Tell The Truth," or a jack-in-the-box display, with Meisei and Hokutofuji popping up and down repeatedly.  I've read some comments about shimpan and other elders being critical of the tactics of some rikishi at tachiai and I think Konosuke and others are trying to tread carefully, between letting the trend go so far that it forces the implementation of some new rule, and not letting anyone use tachiai delays as a tactic.  What's Japanese for WE DON'T HAVE ALL DAY?

Edited by Ichimawashi
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16 minutes ago, sekitori said:

The problem is that no matter how much he screamed at them, neither rikishi eventually got both hands on the ground. I think that maybe after a few more matters,  Meisei and Hokutofuji would have gotten the idea that both hands should touch the dohyo at the tachi-ai. If it took that long to happen, everyone would have blamed the gyoji for prolonging the match when the fault was really the rikishis'. Kimura Konosuke was only trying to enforce a rule that apparently no one else seems to care about. 

What happened yesterday was Konosuke yelling at them, too loudly, three times while they were in the process of settling into a pre-tachiai hands down at a similar pace as most bouts, before they stood up the first time. And that is the norm for him. 

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5 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

What happened yesterday was Konosuke yelling at them, too loudly, three times while they were in the process of settling into a pre-tachiai hands down at a similar pace as most bouts, before they stood up the first time. And that is the norm for him. 

Watch it again; I did.  The first was almost a whisper.  The second was conversation level.  The third was loud but not yelling, and considering that Meisei looked as though he might never put his hands down, Konosuke showed a fair bit of restraint.  

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

Watch it again; I did.  The first was almost a whisper.  The second was conversation level.  The third was loud but not yelling, and considering that Meisei looked as though he might never put his hands down, Konosuke showed a fair bit of restraint.  

And what was the total time within all three of these instructions took place? There was nothing unusual about the time the two rikishi were taking to settle in to their tachi-ai compared to other bouts.

Edited by Kaninoyama

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4 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

And what was the total time within all three of these instructions took place? 

Not very long.  Are you now changing your argument?  Didn't this start with you claiming 'incessant screaming?'  Even after they stood up and got back down again, Meisei's elbows were touching his knees, fists far from the ground, until well after Hokutofuji had both fists down; Konosuke clearly feels that this is an unfair advantage.

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1 minute ago, Ichimawashi said:

Not very long.  Are you now changing your argument?  Didn't this start with you claiming 'incessant screaming?'  Even after they stood up and got back down again, Meisei's elbows were touching his knees, fists far from the ground, until well after Hokutofuji had both fists down; Konosuke clearly feels that this is an unfair advantage.

I'm not interested in nit-picking this any longer. Feel free to agree or disagree. I honestly don't care that much either way. It was just a live commentary as a sumo fan reacting to the moment in this, the Nagoya Basho 2019 discussion thread. Kimura Konosuke is clearly a polarizing gyoji with supporters and detractors. I'll leave it at that.

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I don't think Hokutofuji stood back up because of Konosuke, but because he too was bothered by Meisei's dithering. In his second utterance, Konosuke not only says put your hands down, he says put them down properly. Naturally at that rank Mesei is going to be in bouts often officiated by Konosuke. And naturally the stern gyoji has noticed that Meisei consistently tries to gain the tachi-ai advantage by outwaiting his opponents until they drop both hands first. He'll just squat there and wait for aite to drop 'em both, hoping to get the jump. Hokutofuji had one hand down and one hand close, and Meisei was not engaging at all. Yeah, that is somewhat common these days, but I don't like that tom foolery, and apparently neither does Konosuke.

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What a load of fuss about nothing. A gyoji used a loud voice. Who cares?

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Give that gyoji a microphone so that he does not have to shout so much.   I hate to seem him go kyujo b/c of laryngitis.

 

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6 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

I stand by my view that he indeed did, but won't debate this any further.

At tachi-ai most (all non-Konosuke) gyoji will instruct the wrestlers to "matta nashi" and something to the effect of "hands down" once (maybe once more when they are taking a really long time to do so), and that is more than sufficient. So you really believe the facing-off rikishi need to have "hands down" screamed into their ears every five seconds while they are in the process of doing exactly that? If so, why?

I thought you weren't going to debate this any further. Let's leave it like that, as we obviously disagree to a great extent.

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Juryo has 7 leaders now with two losses. 

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21 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Juryo has 7 leaders now with two losses. 

Eight actually!

 

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1 minute ago, Ichimawashi said:

Eight actually!

 

Indeed, forgot Wakatakakage himself..

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Curse of the robnplunder continues.   I predicted Enho's win vs Kagayaki and, predictably, Kagayaki blows away Enho.  My apologies to Enho.

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19 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Indeed, forgot Wakatakakage himself..

Nice picture.  

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Kotoeko made excellent use of the extra few inches provided by the tokudawara there to turn Kaisei. For a moment I thought he'd hopped out but he knew exactly where he was and made a deft little leap onto the bale. Nicely done. Kaisei is in big trouble though.

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14 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Kotoeko made excellent use of the extra few inches provided by the tokudawara there to turn Kaisei. For a moment I thought he'd hopped out but he knew exactly where he was and made a deft little leap onto the bale. Nicely done. Kaisei is in big trouble though.

I am surprised that there was no monoii.   With naked eye, it would have been very hard to tell whether Kotoeko kept his foot in or not.   A gutsy no call.

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Plenty of relief on Meisei's face at getting his first win ...

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Choichi for Meisei and Ikioi and about time.   Even without all the bandages, I have to doubt if Ikioi is healthy.    

Asanoyama is proving  that his yusho in the last basho was a fluke.  Mitakeumi dominated him today.  Speaking of Mita, I hope he gets a double digit win KK to make another run at Ozeki rank.

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Not a bad effort from Daieisho there against Hakuho. I expected that to be over much faster.

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1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

A gutsy no call.

Or a lazy one?

I would have to say that "it took guts" for the monoii team back on Day 13 of the last tournament to reverse the gyoji's call and award victory to Asanoyama.  But I'm still in therapy over that one...

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1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

I am surprised that there was no monoii.   With naked eye, it would have been very hard to tell whether Kotoeko kept his foot in or not.   A gutsy no call.

Yeah, it’s possible he did go out. I just assumed he hadn’t as no mono-ii was called and I didn’t see a replay. 

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16 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Not a bad effort from Daieisho there against Hakuho. I expected that to be over much faster.

Fully agree with you.  Daieisho successfully stayed on his feet after several attempts by Hakuho to pull/force him down.  Then after the bout was over, Hakuho pressed down on Daieisho as if to say "stay down".  I guess that can be classified as a gesture of love from the Yokozuna.  But I have never liked that sort of thing.

It is worth noting that Hakuho, I believe, gave Daieisho a nod (of recognition for his sumo skills) to be his championship flag bearer after one of his championship wins, and Daieisho may also have made an appearance in Hakuho's dohyoiri team.  But my memory is not what it used to be, so perhaps someone else can confirm or refute that...

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