Basho Talk - Nagoya 2017 (SPOILERS)

[Senkoho 552]

what time do you think will Juryo bouts begin on senshuraku?

[RabidJohn 1,858]

I've said before that it was seeing Chiyonofuji in 1987 that got me into sumo as a casual fan and I take no offence at having it pointed out that he was easy to be a casual fan of. I'm still just a casual fan of ozumo, in that I've nothing personally invested in it other than interest and time.

My profile ever since I signed up here has shown that Chiyonofuji is my all-time favourite rikishi, so of course I'm biased - how could I not be?

However, if I've ever come across as suggesting that Chiyonofuji is the all-time shining exemplar of hinkaku (which I don't think I have) then I've misrepresented myself. I know he wasn't perfect; even as a 1-basho-a-year watcher I saw him lose his rag with Terao once, which was a fail, so I'm sure there must have been others in the 5/6 I didn't see.

Similarly, I hope I haven't come across as suggesting Hakuho is the worst ever. Again, I know he isn't. He hasn't had any bollockings from the NSK for a long time now, but bollockings he has had nevertheless and I don't ever remember Chiyonofuji receiving any, though I accept that could just be my woeful ignorance. I don't dislike Hakuho at all. I really admire his sumo and what he's done with it. He's making history with every bout. He just does little things that I don't like, and I wish he wouldn't. I've also noticed a marked increase in Hakuho's popularity since his zensho comeback from an injury-plagued year, and I've mentioned before that I expect his popularity to rise after he's retired.

@John Gunning I remember Akebono telling you he left the NSK because he'd been told a gaijin would never become rijicho. That's just one side of a story, of course, but credible given the overt discrimination against gaijin in ozumo; i.e. 1 per heya, having to renounce nationality to obtain kabu... Are you anticipating a revolution within the NSK, or just a gradual swing as the old guard dies off?

[WAKATAKE 2,677]

20 minutes ago, Senkoho said:

what time do you think will Juryo bouts begin on senshuraku?

Everything usually is planned to start an hour earlier so that they can do all the award ceremonies, playoffs and such. Since most of the lower division wrestlers have already done their seven matches, there won't be as many lower level bouts on day 15 as there are on regular days.

[Asojima 2,874]

3 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

.... Since most of the lower division wrestlers have already done their seven matches, there won't be as many lower level bouts on day 15 as there are on regular days.

But the matches for days 13-15 start about 2 hours later to make up for the reduced number of matches.

 

[Chiyozakura 148]

2 hours ago, Dapeng said:

Upon retirement Chyunofuji declined the ichidai offer but took the "Jinmaku" kabu and remained in Kokonoe heya. Many people thought he was modest to decline the honor of ichidai. After Hokutomi retired he remained in the heya too.

Eventually the former Kitanofuji yielded the heya to the former Chyunofuji and left NSK for good, and the former Hokutomi also left the heya.

Chyunofuji was a very successful rikishi but not very successful in NSK board and was voted out of office. 

And it's posts like these the keep reminding me why I am not posting anymore...

[Asashosakari 19,690]

1 hour ago, Senkoho said:

what time do you think will Juryo bouts begin on senshuraku?

Scheduled for 13:40 JST.

[Philioyamfugi 378]

Toyonoshima at 4-2

 

[dingo 1,303]

I'm happy for both Chiyonokuni and Hokutofuji who got their kachikoshi today. Chiyonokuni seems to be one of the nicest guys up there in Makuuchi, and always seems to treat others with a lot of respect. I still can't shake the feeling that Hokutofuji has a resemblance to Kaio, one of my old favourites so I guess that is at least partly why I feel drawn to support him.

Also, Takanoiwa's mawashi seemed to be a lot more loose than Shodai's and that could've been one of the deciding factors of their match. You could sort of even see it on Shodai's face after he was out of the ring.

And did Harumafuji steal the move Ura used against him? ;) Ok, it was textbook tottari but also awfully similar to what Harumafuji lost to.

[MrGrumpyGills 134]

39 minutes ago, dingo said:

And did Harumafuji steal the move Ura used against him? ;) Ok, it was textbook tottari but also awfully similar to what Harumafuji lost t

Glad that I'm not the only one who thought that :)

[dada78641 884]

Question. Let's say Tamawashi wins and gets his kachikoshi tomorrow. Then both sekiwakes will stay where they are. Yoshikaze has a winning record, Kotoshogiku a losing record so he will be demoted. Both M1s have a losing record. Is it possible that either of the M2s Tochinoshin or Hokutofuji could be promoted up to fill up the second komosubi spot, or is that not something they do?

[dingo 1,303]

29 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

Question. Let's say Tamawashi wins and gets his kachikoshi tomorrow. Then both sekiwakes will stay where they are. Yoshikaze has a winning record, Kotoshogiku a losing record so he will be demoted. Both M1s have a losing record. Is it possible that either of the M2s Tochinoshin or Hokutofuji could be promoted up to fill up the second komosubi spot, or is that not something they do?

Yes it is absolutely possible, or depending on the final results Tochiozan could even jump over them -- if both M2s lose and Tochiozan wins.

[sekitori 492]

9 hours ago, Jyuunomori said:

Aoiyama will face Yoshikaze, it will be a good bout. Aoiyama is now 12-2.

 

I don't know how good a bout it will be. Yoshikaze is a far more talented and versatile rikishi. There's always a chance Aoiyama will win, but it's remote. He should have faced Yoshikaze on day 12, followed by Mitakeiumi and Tamawashi. If that happened, his record at the end of day 14 would be closer to 9-5, not 12-2. I would guess that he will end up at 12-3. The NSK has done him a huge favor by providing such weak opposition until now. I assume he'll go all the way up to M1 (I doubt if he'ill be promoted to komusubi) but no matter where he's ranked, his record in the Aki basho should be closer to 3-12.

[Katooshu 3,335]

1 hour ago, dada78641 said:

Question. Let's say Tamawashi wins and gets his kachikoshi tomorrow. Then both sekiwakes will stay where they are. Yoshikaze has a winning record, Kotoshogiku a losing record so he will be demoted. Both M1s have a losing record. Is it possible that either of the M2s Tochinoshin or Hokutofuji could be promoted up to fill up the second komosubi spot, or is that not something they do?

Hokutofuji needs more than 1 sanyaku spot to open, as Tochinoshin will finish with at least as many wins at a higher rank. Also, if Tamawashi goes 7-8 and for some reason is demoted out of sanyaku rather than kept at komusubi, it will mean that Tochiozan beat him on day 15, which will put the latter at 12-3 at M5w, which I'd think would give him a good chance of leaping over a 9-6 or 8-7 M2w Hokutofuji.

So,it seems probable that Hokutofuji is unlucky and will still be a maegashra next basho.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Katooshu

[Amamaniac 2,079]

It was appropriate that Kotoshogiku had a chance to stave off MK going up against Tochinoshin.  With the win, however, Tochinoshin is more or less guaranteed to replace Kotoshogiku in the Komusubi slot.  Will a loss on the senshuraku push Kotoshogiku into retirement?  He will probably consider another tournament hoping to have a shot at the relatively-more-heavily-sponsored bouts.  But if he continues to drop in the rankings, the writing on the wall will be even clearer (i.e., writ large)!

[Asojima 2,874]

32 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Hokutofuji needs more than 1 sanyaku spot to open, as Tochinoshin will finish with at least as many wins at a higher rank . Seems probable that he's unlucky and will still be a maegashra next basho.

Career-wise, any Komusubi promotion after the first one is a non-event.  The only difference between it and an M1-M3 slot is that you  get a big red Day1/2 Yokozuna target painted on your back.

[Jakusotsu 6,052]

...and the chance to earn some kinboshi dough.

[Katooshu 3,335]

5 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Career-wise, any Komusubi promotion after the first one is a non-event.  The only difference between it and an M1-M3 slot is that you  get a big red Day1/2 Yokozuna target painted on your back.

Isn't there a salary difference too?

[Gurowake 4,109]

Just now, Katooshu said:

Isn't there a salary difference too?

One basho's salary difference isn't much compared to their careers.  The ability to get Kinboshi at M1 might be worth more money if they're still young.

[Katooshu 3,335]

True, although one is assured and the other isn't.

Anyway, Hokutofuji would be a first time sanyaku promotee, so he wouldn't fall into the 'non-event' category.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

When I watched the Tochiozan vs Mitakeumi bout, I realized that Mitakeumi is quite a bit smaller than I had imagined.  The two men were fairly close in both weight and height.  For some reason, I had the impression that Mitakeumi was over 6', but in fact he is only 5'10".  Don't know where Mitakeumi's sumo went, but he should have defeated Tochiozan.  I also realized that Tochiozan, like his stablemate Aoiyama, is on a bit of a winning spree this tournament.  In other words, both sekitori are now in a position to go on a Ozeki run.  (Like that is going to happen!)

[Gurowake 4,109]

Going by figures from here there is around a 400k per month salary difference between maegshira and sanyaku, or 800k per basho.  A kinboshi is worth 40k per basho for the rest of their sekitori career. (Numbers in Yen)  So if you can get the kinboshi while young, it's a good deal, and there are 4 Yokozuna now.  If it was like the times when there was just Hakuho or Asashoryu, I'd not imagine anyone would think too highly of their kinboshi chances.  But now, for a good joi maegashira, they might have an expected value of one kinboshi if they fight all 4.

5 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Anyway, Hokutofuji would be a first time sanyaku promotee, so he wouldn't fall into the 'non-event' category.

Yeah, I'm not sure what Asojima is referring to there.  Maybe he's confusing Hokutofuji with Shodai.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Gurowake

[Asojima 2,874]

14 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Yeah, I'm not sure what Asojima is referring to there.  Maybe he's confusing Hokutofuji with Shodai.

The first one allows him to tell his grand kids that he was once a Komusubi.  Other than that, Komusubi is a downer.

[Sakura 1,499]

3 minutes ago, Asojima said:

The first one allows him to tell his grand kids that he was once a Komusubi.  Other than that, Komusubi is a downer.

Unless you get 11+ wins and use it as the start of a successful Ozeki run.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

3 hours ago, dingo said:

And did Harumafuji steal the move Ura used against him? ;) Ok, it was textbook tottari but also awfully similar to what Harumafuji lost to.

I suspect that tottari is technique preferred by smaller wrestlers and both Harumafuji and Ura are relatively small.  You are absolutely right that the techniques were the same.  In fact, after Harumafuji lost to Ura by tottari, he has turned around and used it twice.  The difference today, however, was that instead of a simple arm pull, Harumafuji turned it into and arm bar (à la kotenage). IMHO

Harumafuji might even try it against Hakuho tomorrow!

Edited July 22, 2017 by Amamaniac

[Gospodin 219]

14 minutes ago, Asojima said:

The first one allows him to tell his grand kids that he was once a Komusubi.  Other than that, Komusubi is a downer.

Doesn´t being ranked in sanyaku for one tournament make a wrestler eligible to become an elder, regardless of total number of tournaments as sekitori ?