Hokuseiho Out- Hakuho Demoted - Miyagino-beya Closing

[dingo 1,388]

I wonder what is it with the Kyokai and illustrious yokozuna? Takanohana made to leave, Asashoryu kicked out, now Hakuho on the verge of leaving. As far as I know Chiyonofuji was sidelined in favour of others. Somehow the success as an active yokozuna doesn't translate to post-retirement success. Of course different cases have different circumstances but the common fact is there's something that doesn't seem to click between a dai-yokozuna and the Kyokai. Perhaps it's the sheer ambition and expectation of success and reverence that isn't a good match in a corporate environment. Or perhaps the organisation doesn't work well with exceptional rikishi. I'm not trying to say it's one way or other, and certainly I'm not here to imply any conspiracy. But it stands out, and of course the facts lend themselves well to people who do want to believe in conspiracies. 

[rhyen 1,852]

10 minutes ago, dingo said:

I wonder what is it with the Kyokai and illustrious yokozuna? Takanohana made to leave, Asashoryu kicked out, now Hakuho on the verge of leaving. As far as I know Chiyonofuji was sidelined in favour of others. Somehow the success as an active yokozuna doesn't translate to post-retirement success. Of course different cases have different circumstances but the common fact is there's something that doesn't seem to click between a dai-yokozuna and the Kyokai. Perhaps it's the sheer ambition and expectation of success and reverence that isn't a good match in a corporate environment. Or perhaps the organisation doesn't work well with exceptional rikishi. I'm not trying to say it's one way or other, and certainly I'm not here to imply any conspiracy. But it stands out, and of course the facts lend themselves well to people who do want to believe in conspiracies. 

That would ignore Futabayama and Taiho…are they the exceptions?

[Kishinoyama 603]

3 minutes ago, rhyen said:

That would ignore Futabayama and Taiho…are they the exceptions?

Taiho had a stroke early in his oyakata career. I believe he was more concerned with his health than his position in the NSK. 

[Dapeng 236]

6 minutes ago, rhyen said:

That would ignore Futabayama and Taiho…are they the exceptions?

Taiho was much less successful as oyakata than as rikishi. Futabayama was the only exception.

[dingo 1,388]

10 minutes ago, rhyen said:

That would ignore Futabayama and Taiho…are they the exceptions?

I thought about them but they're much farther away in the past. Whereas all these cases have been in the last 20 years. Or 30 if we count Chiyonofuji's retirement but a Kyokai career will take some time to get going so I'd say 20 is still closer. 

[Asashosakari 19,941]

16 hours ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

that would be a sad outcome reeking of personal vendetta. Such a technically diverse sumo professional with understanding of the need for physical preparation and proper rehabilitation should be leading training of a new crop of rikishi

That's not how I remember the "half the stable is injured at any moment" Hakuho-led Miyagino years, to say nothing of the dude who prompted this whole situation to begin with. Is the psychological well-being of one's deshi not important, or does that only matter when it's Kyokai decisions that are impacting them?
 

Quote

Not to mention he is like the best ad asset for the sumo federation at this point. 

Maybe towards foreigners who don't know better. To the Japanese audience that actually matters he's almost certainly damaged goods at this point, if he was ever an asset to begin with (I'm far from convinced). In any case, Takanohana was a guy with an actual domestic following, and even he became entirely irrelevant to sumo the moment he left the Kyokai. Hakuho will be no different if he goes.

Edited May 30 by Asashosakari

[I am the Yokozuna 204]

As always your memory is correct. Interesting to understand at some later stage whether Hakuho forced them to apply themselves more in training disregarding their abilities and current health status or the rikishis themselves were trying to impress him. 

My Japanese colleagues who are into the sport very much always mention him. Small sample and all that, I know. But as far as I am concerned, je is still on commercials, so probably he sells well. 

[Tochinofuji 390]

2 hours ago, dingo said:

I wonder what is it with the Kyokai and illustrious yokozuna? Takanohana made to leave, Asashoryu kicked out, now Hakuho on the verge of leaving. As far as I know Chiyonofuji was sidelined in favour of others. Somehow the success as an active yokozuna doesn't translate to post-retirement success. Of course different cases have different circumstances but the common fact is there's something that doesn't seem to click between a dai-yokozuna and the Kyokai. Perhaps it's the sheer ambition and expectation of success and reverence that isn't a good match in a corporate environment. Or perhaps the organisation doesn't work well with exceptional rikishi. I'm not trying to say it's one way or other, and certainly I'm not here to imply any conspiracy. But it stands out, and of course the facts lend themselves well to people who do want to believe in conspiracies. 

I think one can also look at it through the other lens - what is it that successful yokozuna find so hard about integrating into a consensus-based old boys hierarchy? I would think by definition they are used to being the exception and outside the norm, and the nature of becoming a yokozuna is that by force of will and body you have reached the summit of the mountain. That's certainly a nail that sticks out, and they often don't seem to do well in agreeing to be hammered down to integrate into the organizational side of things. 

Not to defend the Kyokai in any meaningful sense, but it is a two way street (even ignoring the fact that in-ring success says nothing of one's administrative talents). 

[Reonito 1,613]

In most other major sports, it's the exception rather than the rule when a star athlete joins the organization, and when they do, it tends to be in high-level roles with a lot of power and autonomy (think Jerry West). Ozumo's entire structure, in which coaching and administrative roles are filled entirely by retired athletes, is extremely unusual and arguably doesn't lead to many of those roles being performed well. The fact that it creates friction with anyone who had a high degree of success and recognition while active isn't surprising.

[Ryoshishokunin 330]

And on the other hand, there's an expectation that all the chairmen will be ex-yokozuna: so clearly there are some privileges that survive into oyakata-dom.   

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,281]

1 hour ago, Tochinofuji said:

I think one can also look at it through the other lens - what is it that successful yokozuna find so hard about integrating into a consensus-based old boys hierarchy? I would think by definition they are used to being the exception and outside the norm, and the nature of becoming a yokozuna is that by force of will and body you have reached the summit of the mountain. That's certainly a nail that sticks out, and they often don't seem to do well in agreeing to be hammered down to integrate into the organizational side of things. 

Not to defend the Kyokai in any meaningful sense, but it is a two way street (even ignoring the fact that in-ring success says nothing of one's administrative talents). 

One under appreciated aspect is a dai yokozunas koenkai is full of powerful outside-NSK people and I doubt the NSK has good feelings towards trying to integrate that cadre of people with existing supporters while trying to maintain status quo.

I was really hoping it was going to work out. I suppose he should have established the heya in the mountains of Nikko, I’m appreciating the benefits of public facing oyakata putting their heya in the middle of nowhere now.

[Sumo Spiffy 621]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

That's not how I remember the "half the stable is injured at any moment" Hakuyo-led Miyagino years, to say nothing of the dude who prompted this whole situation to begin with. Is the psychological well-being of one's deshi not important, or does that only matter when it's Kyokai decisions that are impacting them?

I don't like how the whole thing has gone down, but this needs to be pointed out to anyone who thinks Hakuho will be missed for his coaching/stablemaster prowess. Even if you wanted to look at the Hokuseiho situation as a singular egregious mistake, one that could be overcome by a good coach who better learns how to handle his charges, nothing up to this point indicated he was a good coach. Although we'll never know the alternate history, I fully believe Hakuoho has made it further back working with Isegahama than he would have solely with Miyagino. He essentially needed to re-learn sumo in a way that fit his current body, on top of not unnecessarily stressing his injury while it was still healing, and given the aforementioned state of so many Miyagino wrestlers, I'm not confident Hakuho was the guy for that job. Maybe he would have become that level of coach, but he wasn't there yet.

Edited May 30 by Sumo Spiffy

[RabidJohn 1,942]

3 hours ago, dingo said:

As far as I know Chiyonofuji was sidelined in favour of others. 

He seemed to be doing okay for 20 years, though, culminating in three years on the board of directors. That's not sidelined.

He definitely lost support in the wake of the match-fixing scandal in 2011, which is understandable and a long way removed from his status as a yokozuna. 

Edited May 30 by RabidJohn

[Koorifuu 1,079]

I'm mostly thinking of Hakuho Cup. Who'd expect him to carry on with the event if he's out of ozumo? Continuing to feed those who ran him out would make no sense.

Unless, and hear my tinfoil hat out, he's got plans to start a competitor to NSK. 

(I'm half joking.)

[Ryoshishokunin 330]

8 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I don't like how the whole thing has gone down, but this needs to be pointed out to anyone who thinks Hakuho will be missed for his coaching/stablemaster prowess. Even if you wanted to look at the Hokuseiho situation as a singular egregious mistake, one that could be overcome by a good coach who better learns how to handle his charges, nothing up to this point indicated he was a good coach. Although we'll never know the alternate history, I fully believe Hakuoho has made it further back working with Isegahama than he would have solely with Miyagino. He essentially needed to re-learn sumo in a way that fit his current body, on top of not unnecessarily stressing his injury while it was still healing, and given the aforementioned state of so many Miyagino wrestlers, I'm not confident Hakuho was the guy for that job. Maybe he would have become that level of coach, but he wasn't there yet.

Even if we take this as given: since when does any of that matter?   

[Reonito 1,613]

51 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

Unless, and hear my tinfoil hat out, he's got plans to start a competitor to NSK. 

(I'm half joking.)

I almost wrote this up as an April Fools post this year 

[Chiyozakura 157]

5 hours ago, Dapeng said:

Taiho was much less successful as oyakata than as rikishi. Futabayama was the only exception.

I would not call Futabayama an exception. Many dai-Yokozuna became Rijicho. Tochinishiki led the Kyokai for 16 years after winning 10 yusho, most before the 6 basho per year were established and at that time te second most in history. Kitanoumi was also a long-term Rijicho. As mentioned above Taiho had serious health issues but still became Riji. Chiyonofuji was a very tough man who seems to not have been popular with other rikishi while Takanohana simply was too much of a reformer and everything but diplomatic. Hakuho is the only one I do not understand why he has such a bad reputation within the NSK. I hope he stays. It is way more interesting when the Shisho are former major rikishi than having a bunch of Maegashira running the show.

[Ripe 74]

2 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

I would not call Futabayama an exception. 

He was an Oyakata while active wrestler! He actually won four of his twelve yusho while being Oyakata to his own stable! That alone makes him an exception. 

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

10 minutes ago, Ripe said:

He was an Oyakata while active wrestler! He actually won four of his twelve yusho while being Oyakata to his own stable! That alone makes him an exception. 

Rules were different back then.

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

9 hours ago, dingo said:

I wonder what is it with the Kyokai and illustrious yokozuna? Takanohana made to leave, Asashoryu kicked out, now Hakuho on the verge of leaving. As far as I know Chiyonofuji was sidelined in favour of others. Somehow the success as an active yokozuna doesn't translate to post-retirement success. Of course different cases have different circumstances but the common fact is there's something that doesn't seem to click between a dai-yokozuna and the Kyokai. Perhaps it's the sheer ambition and expectation of success and reverence that isn't a good match in a corporate environment. Or perhaps the organisation doesn't work well with exceptional rikishi. I'm not trying to say it's one way or other, and certainly I'm not here to imply any conspiracy. But it stands out, and of course the facts lend themselves well to people who do want to believe in conspiracies. 

Nobody is bigger than the Association. Not even the best rikishi who ever lived.

[Ripe 74]

5 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Rules were different back then.

Of course they were. The point is that he was Oyakata for four years before he retired which makes it for a whole different set of circumstances and potentially giving him an advantage none of the later Yokozuna had. 

Meaning he can't really be considered (either way) when judging how Yokozuna's did as Oyakata...

Edited May 30 by Ripe

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

7 hours ago, Reonito said:

In most other major sports, it's the exception rather than the rule when a star athlete joins the organization, and when they do, it tends to be in high-level roles with a lot of power and autonomy (think Jerry West). Ozumo's entire structure, in which coaching and administrative roles are filled entirely by retired athletes, is extremely unusual and arguably doesn't lead to many of those roles being performed well. The fact that it creates friction with anyone who had a high degree of success and recognition while active isn't surprising.

The best performers don't always make the best teachers and managers (I know it very well since I also work in an openly competitive field). They often get the opportunity to try due to their fame and connections, but the results differ quite wildly.

NSK is a ridiculously exclusive organization with 130 officially qualified candidates for 110 jobs (the numbers are approximate). Expecting every dai-yokozuna to be an excellent oyakata would just be unrealistic. 

[Asashosakari 19,941]

22 minutes ago, Ripe said:

Of course they were. The point is that he was Oyakata for four years before he retired which makes it for a whole different set of circumstances and potentially giving him an advantage none of the later Yokozuna had.

Hakuho was training a personal collection of deshi for more than 10 years before he officially took over Miyagino-beya, longer than anyone else I can recall. It's really not that different from that old double-license system that Futabayama operated under, except that Hakuho was ultimately still answerable to the previous Miyagino-oyakata. In fact, given how quickly everything went south once he became the boss, one has to wonder if his predecessor might have filled a more crucial role in Hakuho's success than is generally acknowledged.

Edited May 30 by Asashosakari

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

The press is reporting that the Kyokai will consider moving Miyagino to another heya. That would mean no re-establishing Miyagino-beya, obviously.

Also, he will hold a press conference on the 9th if he decides to leave. 

[Asashosakari 19,941]

A recent  Sanspo update claims that Miyagino was convinced that he would be getting his heya back within a year, with the disappointment over that not becoming true being the driver for the recent developments. If that's accurate: I'm sorry, but considering that the guys in charge were very clear from the start that there won't be any upfront timetable, either he's delusional, or he didn't take his punishment seriously from the start, or he's surrounded by too many sycophants who have been whispering sweet little lies into his ears for the last year.