Natsu 2022 Discussion Thread - here be spoilers

[maglor 102]

Given that 5-8 Shodai has been deemed an appropriate opponent for Teru on Day 14 while it's the lower sanyaku who have to deal with the Maegashira who are doing well, I wouldn't be surprised if Mitakeumi, especially if he is 7-7 faces Teru anyway.

[Rocks 1,790]

18 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

There I was thinking Mitakeumi would have a very hard time avoiding kadoban, but considering the recent trend for senshuraku match-ups to be more relevant to the yusho race than banzuke position you're probably right. If he can beat Takakeisho tomorrow, he could well be given a lower-ranked contender on Sunday to have a better shout at a KK. Still, not a brilliant outing for him this time.

I thought Takakeisho looked as good as I've seen him recently. I loved the nekodamashi and the fact that he kept trying throughout what was quite a lengthy bout for him.

I've got to fancy Terunofuji for the yusho now.

I would agree that Mitakeumi may avoid Terunofuji but for a different reason. Avoiding a 3 man playoff. I think if Sadanoumi wins Day 14 he will face Terunofuji Day 15 with the winner potentially facing Takanosho if he wins out. If he loses Sadanoumi will face Takanosho Day 15 and Mitkeumi will face Terunofuji with the winner of Sadanoumi/Takanosho having a chance at playoff if Mitakeumi beats Terunofuji. In the latter scenario though top finisher could only has 11 wins and things could get crazy. 

[Amamaniac 2,014]

16 hours ago, Octofuji said:

Shouldn't the "dead body" rule apply here? Looking at the replay Ura was flying through the air with no part of him on the ground as Takakeisho casually stepped out.

(I don't understand the rule but can't imagine what it can be if it doesn't apply to this bout...)

Far be it for me to second guess how the minds of the shimpan work.  They seem at times to pick and choose what rules to apply to a given bout under monoii review.

IMHO, the dead body rule seems to apply mostly to bouts in which both wrestlers fall  out of the ring more or less simultaneously.  However, in this particular bout (Ura v. Takakeisho) Ura's fall was inside the ring and Takakeisho stepped out, rather than fell, into the corner.  

A possible factor in the decision was the fact that although Ura was falling at the time Takakeisho stepped out, he managed to bring his foot back down on the ring and remain pseudo-upright buying himself time: time for Takakeisho to be ruled definitively out.  

Physical feats like that are one of the remarkable aspects of sumo.  Athletic prowess or desperation, call them what you will.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Amamaniac

[Rocks 1,790]

15 hours ago, maglor said:

Given that 5-8 Shodai has been deemed an appropriate opponent for Teru on Day 14 while it's the lower sanyaku who have to deal with the Maegashira who are doing well, I wouldn't be surprised if Mitakeumi, especially if he is 7-7 faces Teru anyway.

I wouldn't look at Shodai's schedule speaking to what will happen to anyone else. I think the Kyokai is probably tried of hearing everyone going on about Shodai never having a proper Ozeki schedule and giving him one regardless of record this basho.  Shodai is facing Terunofuji because it's ridiculous an Ozeki can avoid meeting a Yokozuna for so long. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Rocks

[Fashiritētā 132]

3 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

Shodai would've never been close to ozeki as early as one decade ago, and I don't mean he lacks the skill. Because he doesn't. And I'm already taking into consideration that long COVID's been destroying his stamina for any bout that requires continuous physical effort, which he often loses nowadays.

Ever since I saw that jungyo video from around four years ago, where a bunch of makuuchi guys captained by Tamawashi were bullying a clearly uncomfortable Shodai by circling him with slaps and pinches to the nipples, I've always had the impression that his eventual ascent to ozeki was only made possible by that relative clampdown on hazing and mistreatment of "inferiors" that's happened in the last few years. He just doesn't have that primal, alpha mentality of domination over other males like most sumo greats had - and others would've destroyed him mentally and physically before he could amount to anything. In fact, I haven't got any concrete data to substantiate this claim, but I'm pretty sure his sudden rise from maegashira also-ran to ozeki was precisely just after that change.

Exactly, Shodai is missing the aggression and focus needed to become an elite level Ozeki, Hakuho proved that last year with the slap fest.Day 14 July 2021. Not once did Shodai try any offense of any kind.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Fashiritētā

[Sumo Spiffy 399]

19 hours ago, Octofuji said:

Shouldn't the "dead body" rule apply here? Looking at the replay Ura was flying through the air with no part of him on the ground as Takakeisho casually stepped out.

(I don't understand the rule but can't imagine what it can be if it doesn't apply to this bout...)

I don't know this rule, but whenever I see a replay from a mono-ii, they frame-by-frame it to see who touches first, and that's either been who the judges go with (mostly) or who everyone says got robbed (if the judges go the other way). So, at least in this basho, it's been consistently about first touch.

[Sumo Spiffy 399]

Re: the torikumi:

I was on board with a lot of people thinking Ura and Terunofuji would fight, because a wise individual mentioned many days ago there should be two sanyaku-sanyaku fights each day for the rest of the tournament, and Waka/Abi still hasn't happened yet. But Teru's fighting Shodai, and as far as I can tell, if there's an ozeki to fight on day 15, he fights an ozeki. So, is Teru really going to compete for the crown without having to fight any of the contenders he hasn't already faced as part of the normal yokozuna schedule? Maybe that should make it a little more difficult (it's hard to argue that even Shodai and 3/4 of a Mitakeumi are less challenging than Ura and Sadanoumi), but it still feels kinda bad.

[Kaito 233]

6 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I don't know this rule, but whenever I see a replay from a mono-ii, they frame-by-frame it to see who touches first, and that's either been who the judges go with (mostly) or who everyone says got robbed (if the judges go the other way). So, at least in this basho, it's been consistently about first touch.

A real example of the dead body rule was Hokutofuji vs Takarafuji today. Takarafuji pulled Hokutofuji down and caused him to touch first, but he leaped backwards out of the dohyo before Hokutofuji landed. If you can't keep a foot in, you don't get credit. Once you lose your presence in the dohyo, you become dead.

[Sumo Spiffy 399]

1 minute ago, Kaito said:

A real example of the dead body rule was Hokutofuji vs Takarafuji today. Takarafuji pulled Hokutofuji down and caused him to touch first, but he leaped backwards out of the dohyo before Hokutofuji landed. If you can't keep a foot in, you don't get credit. Once you lose your presence in the dohyo, you become dead.

Maybe that's why Ura got credit, because he was still in the ring? It would make sense if leaping out in a clear attempt to stay airborne doesn't help but just being airborne within the ring is valid. But, again, I don't know how the rule is intended to work.

Also, to add on a bit to my previous post, I would also be down to see Teru fight Ura or Aoiyama if they win on day 14 (since I imagine Sadanoumi and Takanosho will fight). I just don't want to see him not fight a contender at the end of the tournament when there are some available.

[Sakura 1,341]

31 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Re: the torikumi:

I was on board with a lot of people thinking Ura and Terunofuji would fight, because a wise individual mentioned many days ago there should be two sanyaku-sanyaku fights each day for the rest of the tournament, and Waka/Abi still hasn't happened yet. But Teru's fighting Shodai, and as far as I can tell, if there's an ozeki to fight on day 15, he fights an ozeki. So, is Teru really going to compete for the crown without having to fight any of the contenders he hasn't already faced as part of the normal yokozuna schedule? Maybe that should make it a little more difficult (it's hard to argue that even Shodai and 3/4 of a Mitakeumi are less challenging than Ura and Sadanoumi), but it still feels kinda bad.

One of the Yokozuna privileges is not to have to face lower-rankers who are in contention unless you have to. They've sort of shifted a little bit on that recently, but it wouldn't surprise me if they avoided that match-up on Day 15. If Sadanoumi is one win ahead of Terunofuji then I'd expect them to fight an they may decide that Sadanoumi gaining the yusho without fighting the Yokozuna would be undesirable and do the match-up anyway.

[Jakusotsu 5,277]

39 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

...because a wise individual mentioned many days ago there should be two sanyaku-sanyaku fights each day for the rest of the tournament

There could still be three on Senshuraku, which would be the "normal" way to do it.

[Sumo Spiffy 399]

2 hours ago, Sakura said:

One of the Yokozuna privileges is not to have to face lower-rankers who are in contention unless you have to. They've sort of shifted a little bit on that recently, but it wouldn't surprise me if they avoided that match-up on Day 15. If Sadanoumi is one win ahead of Terunofuji then I'd expect them to fight an they may decide that Sadanoumi gaining the yusho without fighting the Yokozuna would be undesirable and do the match-up anyway.

That's true, I would definitely expect this if Sadanoumi is somehow the only one at 11 wins after day 14.

Ah well, maybe we'll end up with a playoff. That would be just as good, really.

[Koorifuu 693]

4 hours ago, Fashiritētā said:

Exactly, Shodai is missing the aggression and focus needed to become an elite level Ozeki, Hakuho proved that last year with the slap fest.Day 14 July 2021. Not once did Shodai try any offense of any kind.

Indeed. Shodai even seemed to wither - had no answer to the unorthodox tachiai and the flailing arms.

Other top guy who was probably too gentle and soft for his own good - Kotoshogiku. The difference is that the Geek's style was overly physical and didn't leave much room for setbacks if his mind wasn't in the right place. Shodai, on the other hand...

[RabidJohn 1,412]

I've been wondering about Terunofuji being given Shodai, an already kadoban ozeki, tomorrow.

Does the recent revamp of the judging department mean the traditionalists are back in charge of torikumi making now?

It would look odd now if he didn't get Mitakeumi on senshuraku.

[dada78641 871]

Can't believe Takakeisho tried nekodamashi against Terunofuji. You can't make that work that unless your name is Hakuho.

[Benevolance 2,372]

Is that what it was? I thought he was just trying a double harite with those t-rex arms. 

[robnplunder 972]

15 hours ago, robnplunder said:

My prediction for today's key matches:

• Terunofuji beats Takakeisho
• Takanosho loses to WTK
• Ura loses to Abi
• Sadanoumi loses to Hoshoryu.

Hmm.  Sadanoumi surprised me there.   But 3 out of 4 wasn't bad.

Today's prediction:

• Terunofuji rolls over Shodai.
• Takanosho beats Kiribayama.  This will be a tight match.  Personally, I like Takanosho better than I like Kiri, hence the pick.
• Sadanoumi loses to Daieisho.  Just to spite me and my predictions, Sadanoumi may beat Daiesho here.  
• Mitakeumi beats Takakeisho, then loses the final match to go Kadoban, making it unanimous.

 

[Octofuji 244]

8 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

A possible factor in the decision was the fact that although Ura was falling at the time Takakeisho stepped out, he managed to bring his foot back down on the ring and remain pseudo-upright buying himself time: time for Takakeisho to be ruled definitively out.  

Physical feats like that are one of the remarkable aspects of sumo.  Athletic prowess or desperation, call them what you will.

Thank you I missed that despite watching at least three times - once I saw him horizontal in the air I just assumed he was a goner. It's astonishing the torsion in his foot given how much weight it's supporting.

[Sakura 1,341]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I've been wondering about Terunofuji being given Shodai, an already kadoban ozeki, tomorrow.

Well, he wasn't kadoban when the schedule was announced.

[robnplunder 972]

7 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Maybe that's why Ura got credit, because he was still in the ring? I

In a still shot, he looked like a superman flying through the air.  I think he got credit for that.  

[Sumo Spiffy 399]

2 hours ago, dada78641 said:

Can't believe Takakeisho tried nekodamashi against Terunofuji. You can't make that work that unless your name is Hakuho.

Is that the name? I called it the 'made you flinch'.

[Yamanashi 3,341]

4 hours ago, dada78641 said:

Can't believe Takakeisho tried nekodamashi against Terunofuji. You can't make that work that unless your name is Hakuho.

Was that  what it's called?  I swear it looked like a Junior Justice League cartoon: "Beware, for I am ... Hamster Boy! Scrabble, Scrabble, SCRATCH!"

[robnplunder 972]

It is so good to see Tomokaze getting close to Juryo status.  Before his major injury, I thought he'd eventually make an Ozeki.  

[Yamanashi 3,341]

1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

It is so good to see Tomokaze getting close to Juryo status.  Before his major injury, I thought he'd eventually make an Ozeki.  

It is good to see.  He has gone from Jd55 to the top of Makushita in eight basho.  Not bad.

Terunofuji rose from Jd48 to Juryo in 6 basho, to illustrate the quickest possible rise.

Something to think about next basho when Asanoyama is sitting at about Sd22.

[Gospodin 174]

To ease off a bit, before things get going today - a little trivia (apologies if I´m boring/annoying you). Hakuho almost never lost when he had his left uwate grip. There is one riikishi left in Makuuchi who beat him when he had his favoured grip. it was also the last time. Guesses ? :

Edited May 21, 2022 by Gospodin