Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

[Kaioshoryu 64]

2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Apparently this issue attracted a different vein of outrage over at tachiai.com:

Comments Closed

PLEASE NOTE

Comments for this post are now closed. Some great and thoughtful discussion from our highly-valued readers, but we were swerving into things like trans-gender issues that have nothing to do with sumo. Thank you for understanding.

 

Trans-gender issues?? Damn, I never thought of that....

[Akinomaki 40,888]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

It won't. But it would break with tradition-that is the whole story

I personally don't think it's an issue, but I do respect tradition of others, as strange as they may seem to me..

It was a tradition of the same kind that women weren't allowed on the sacred ground of Mt. Fuji or Mt. Hiei - this sumo tradition has just reached the point where it gets annoying and will be disposed of.

 

[Kintamayama 45,675]

7 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

It was a tradition of the same kind that women weren't allowed on the sacred ground of Mt. Fuji or Mt. Hiei - this sumo tradition has just reached the point where it gets annoying and will be disposed of.

 

Again, life is life. Sumo is sumo. Bringing up example from life like voting rights and Mt. Fuji is comparing apples to sushi. It will never change. Maybe they'll find some sort of compromise like Asashosakari and others proposed, but women on the dohyo? Never. And why has it reached the point that it's annoying NOW? It wasn't annoying before?*

 

*I do expect you to blame Takanohana for this as well..

[Yatagarasu 352]

For me, the whole ‘it’s tradition/religious custom’ arguments go out the window when you consider the fact that for many years the most recent head of the Tomioka Hachimangu - the very home of sumo - was a woman. The gyoji are symbolic of Shinto priests, as indicated by their dress. If the real religious role that underpins their ceremonial function can be performed by a woman in real life for real Shinto followers at the sumo shrine, then as far as I am concerned, so can theirs. You’d need some Olympic level mental gymnastics to argue otherwise. 

It was mentioned elsewhere in the thread that the ‘tradition’ is apparently an Edo confection which, on the long timeline of sumo, is comparatively recent. If this is indeed the case, it makes even less sense to uphold a regressive amendment that is more constrictive than the original rules.

[Akinomaki 40,888]

25 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Again, life is life. Sumo is sumo. Bringing up example from life like voting rights and Mt. Fuji is comparing apples to sushi. It will never change. Maybe they'll find some sort of compromise like Asashosakari and others proposed, but women on the dohyo? Never. And why has it reached the point that it's annoying NOW? It wasn't annoying before?*

What is sacred about voting rights? YOU are comparing apples to sushi there. Those bans on sacred shinto grounds are of the same tradition.

And that one now looks like the straw of annoyance to break the tradition camel's back.

The problem with this tradition is, that it has no base to defend it other than that it has been a tradition for some 100 years.

A base would be e.g.  that every child in Japan knew that the rikishi fight on sacred ground, where the gods dwell and protect them - and that everybody in and around sumo firmly believed that if a woman would touch that ground, the gods would get angry and would withdraw their protection - and the rikishi actually would get INJURED ...

- but apparently they got angry about something else

Quote

*I do expect you to blame Takanohana for this as well..

Of course - had he not misbehaved like he did, he'd be still in charge of the jungyo - and he had been there and not faked a toilet visit - and would have taken care that there is either male personnel around to help or he had given the distinct order that the women should hurry onto the dohyo - no spectator had complained then

[Asashosakari 19,748]

51 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

It was mentioned elsewhere in the thread that the ‘tradition’ is apparently an Edo confection which, on the long timeline of sumo, is comparatively recent. If this is indeed the case, it makes even less sense to uphold a regressive amendment that is more constrictive than the original rules.

I don't know if it really qualifies as a recent concoction. "No women on the dohyo" as an actual rule for Ozumo might only date back to the Meiji era or whenever, but I suspect that's only the case because prior to that time it was absolutely obvious to everyone and didn't even need to be stated. Perhaps also an issue: which parts of sumo history the modern-day Ozumo wants to claim as its own roots. I mean, women's sumo happened in the old days, but it mostly had a reputation akin to something like bikini mud wrestling nowdays. If you're in charge of Olympic wrestling, you wouldn't want to be mentioned in one breath with a side-show act like that either. Ozumo's roots are hardly pure (after all, it's been professional entertainment for 300 years), but many of its core beliefs obviously harken back to the days of sumo as a ceremonial demonstration for feudal lords and other important people - almost a pure man's world.

Anyway, people need to differentiate between "women in sumo" and "women in Ozumo". It's not the same thing, though I doubt the awareness exists among the uninformed hordes on social media who believe that posting a 140 character complaint about something on the internet counts as "getting involved". (Worse, a lot of modern journalism isn't much better either, because large parts of today's journalist cadre are social media-addicted and have lost all sense of proportion, too.)

Edited April 7, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,675]

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

For me, the whole ‘it’s tradition/religious custom’ arguments go out the window when you consider the fact that for many years the most recent head of the Tomioka Hachimangu - the very home of sumo - was a woman.

Yes, but was she allowed on the dohyo? 

[Kintamayama 45,675]

46 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

 

The problem with this tradition is, that it has no base to defend it other than that it has been a tradition for some 100 years.

 

EXACTLY. Tradition. End of story. Most traditions, without going into religion and beliefs, are just that-traditions based on interpretations of nothing that is explicitly said that becomes gospel with the years.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Akinomaki 40,888]

9 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

EXACTLY. Tradition. End of story. Most traditions, without going into religion and beliefs, are just that-traditions based on interpretations of nothing that is explicitly said that becomes gospel with the years.

And tradition is very flexible in Japan - 10 years of doing something new and it is already a tradition.

But tradition tends to disappear if it becomes appalling instead of appealing - and no longer interesting and mysterious.

[Fukurou 534]

11 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Would Ms. Nakagawa have made the same fiery speech if the stuff didn't happen a few days ago? If this is really something that irks her, why didn't she complain about this last year as well?

How do you know she didn't complain last year?

Edited April 7, 2018 by Fukurou

[Kintamayama 45,675]

15 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

How do you know she didn't complain last year?

If we didn't hear about it, she didn't complain. 

[Fukurou 534]

3 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

If we didn't hear about it, she didn't complain. 

That means nothing.  Again, how do you know she didn't complain, regardless of whether or not it made the media?

[Kintamayama 45,675]

 

6 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

That means nothing.  Again, how do you know she didn't complain, regardless of whether or not it made the media?

 I'm telling you, she didn't. When Governess Ota complained for five years, we all knew it.  It's not a honbasho, just an occasional jungyo, why should she complain?  She's just out to make some political gains from this, like some of the members here. And if it's not in the media, it doesn't mean a thing. Mumbling to your best friend is not complaining. Nothing less than a public press conference. Anything else is grumbling.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Benevolance 2,515]

No offense to anyone in particular, but this thread has become pretty silly. As inter-basho boredom busters go, I give this scandal a C-.

[maorencze 144]

4 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

*I do expect you to blame Takanohana for this as well..

I'd say Takanohana obviously sent the woman up, but I can't find my sarcasm font anywhere

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

In my view the Association is pretty much trapped here. What I think they could do with everyone keeping face is to simply ban ALL people who are not members (i.e. everyone who is not a wrestler, oyakata, coach, gyoji or yobidashi) from entering the mount. That would mean that they have to change the award winner's and a couple of other ceremonies, but problem solved.

Naive, I agree.

[Akinomaki 40,888]

So, there are many possibilities to mend this  without simply abolishing the tradition:

• declare any female who has to touch the dohyo an incarnation for the day of the harvest goddess for which sumo is held in the first place - also after she touched it
• give to some main shrine the privilege to consecrate a specially made sacrilege protection buffer carpet for the dohyo, on which ALL NSK externals have to walk, for yusho ceremonies, mayor address, danpatsu shiki etc.
• always have a reconsecration set at the dohyo, for emergency use by a gyoji at hand
• keep the tradition as it is, with a voluntary self-restriction, and each time a feminist activist breaks the rule, issue a "please respect the tradition" reminder that the dohyo is actually off-limit to women, like still at Mt. Omine

[dingo 1,308]

22 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Female Mayor Nakagawa  of Takarazuka gave her speech from the side of the dohyo yesterday, just like last year. She was not happy. "There are female governors, female mayors and perhaps we will see a female Prime Minister. During these times, is it right to totally ban women from the dohyo?", she asked. While the crowd clapped, there were male voices shouting "Won't happen!!" Later she held a press conference at City Hall. "They were throwing a lot of salt on the dohyo after the women mounted the dohyo, as if women are something totally impure. As a woman, i was deeply offended. As for next year, I don't mind if it's on the dohyo or off the dohyo, as long as  by then men and women will be equally allowed on the dohyo. Not allowing women on the dohyo is discrimination. I'd like this to be discussed," she said, intending to present the Kyokai with a written document expressing her views. "We have no intention to slight women. This has been going on since the beginning and we are continuing the tradition," explained Kasugano jungyo boss.

"Won't happen!!"

Now, a simple question, without taking sides on this matter. Would Ms. Nakagawa have made the same fiery speech if the stuff didn't happen a few days ago? If this is really something that irks her, why didn't she complain about this last year as well?  It's not something new, this ban. It's not a secret, this ban. Where have all the people who are complaining now, male and female, been all these years?

Tokyo Governor Ms. Yuriko Koike at the regular meeting today: "What the nurse did was wonderful. Saving a life comes before anything, and that goes without saying. " The Governor Cup is awarded to the yusho winner in Tokyo, and her deputy has been awarding it lately.  "I really don't have the energy to challenge the Kyokai and demand to award the Cup myself.." she added.

 

 

A politician needs votes, simple as that. Were it a male politician who stood to gain something from this, he would do the same thing. That's nothing new. 

[Kintamayama 45,675]

10 hours ago, Benevolance said:

No offense to anyone in particular, but this thread has become pretty silly. As inter-basho boredom busters go, I give this scandal a C-.

None taken. And I disagree. I think it is one of the most  important and fundamental threads since the inception of this forum. It shows gumption.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Benihana 1,942]

What is "gumption"? Is it something like not seeing the forest because of all the trees?

[Kintamayama 45,675]

3 hours ago, Benihana said:

What is "gumption"? Is it something like not seeing the forest because of all the trees?

It's when someone acts like Forrest Gump.

[Naganoyama 5,954]

6 hours ago, Benihana said:

What is "gumption"? Is it something like not seeing the forest because of all the trees?

In the UK it is some kind of oven cleaning paste. Or is it a bathroom cleaner? Dang, can't remember.

[sekitori 492]

I think this all comes down to one fact--respecting traditions held by others. Maybe the word "respecting" isn't the proper one. "Tolerating" might be better. If your opinon, like mine, is that the rule preventing women to set foot on the dohyo does not comply with the concept of sexual equality and fairness, you have three choices:

1. Complain about it. As you can see from this topic, that will result in spirited discussions that lead nowhere.

2. Avoid following sumo in protest.

3. Continue to follow it and accept the traditons (no matter how much you may not care for some of them) that go along with it.

I happen to choose option 3.

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by sekitori

[Fukurou 534]

9 minutes ago, sekitori said:

I think this all comes down to one fact--respecting traditions held by others. Maybe the word "respecting" isn't the proper one. "Tolerating" might be better. If your opinon, like mine, is that the rule preventing women to set foot on the dohyo does not comply with the concept of sexual equality and fairness, you have three choices:

1. Complain about it. As you can see from this topic, that will result in spirited discussions that lead nowhere.

2. Avoid following sumo in protest.

3. Continue to follow it and accept the traditons (no matter how much you don't care for some of them) that go along with it.

I happen to choose option 3.

Better be sure your all-male medical team is dohyo-side and ready to go at all times, not just during matches. Can't have any more female medics trying to do their job to help save someone having a stroke on the dohyo while the current crew stand around waiting for someone else to do something.

Oh, and "Gumption" is an informal noun having to do with having initiative, courage, and common sense  (link)

Edited April 8, 2018 by Fukurou

[Yatagarasu 352]

On 4/7/2018 at 18:54, Kintamayama said:

Yes, but was she allowed on the dohyo? 

There are photos of her participating in various sumo-related ceremonies at the shrine.  As for the dohyo itself, I don't know, though I've tried looking for information.  There might be something out there in Japanese.  But if she wasn't allowed on the dohyo, then that puts sumo's 'tradition' in conflict with the Shinto standards it purports to emulate.  

As to why the Mayor Nakagawa may not have said anything before now, I suspect it was because she figured that if the Mayor of Osaka was shouted down for years, then who would bother to listen to her, a comparatively minor official.  I cannot criticise her for being buoyed by the recent public reaction and media spotlight to seek to progress the issue, while everyone is finally listening, especially as a lot of women hold key political posts at the moment.  With an increasing number of female politicians in key posts and changing social values in Japan, this issue is unlikely to go away.