Basho Talk - Aki 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

[Mongolith 51]

Wow Kak really does not give a shit what anyone thinks this tourney. He deserves every bit of criticism he gets after 2 pathetic Henkas. Guessing he is gonna be public enemy #1 in the papers for a bit. Still that was a very nifty reversal at the end. At least he did it to Kise who I never cared for and there will not be another over-hyped tsuna run for him. Still what a shitty way to end the basho with Fuji getting crippled and the dead on Yusho champ acting like a punk..

Edited September 26, 2015 by Mongolith

[Shikona 168]

How pitiful the calls of shame on Kakuryu while the henka addict Harumafuji has never faced this criticism. Henka is clearly within the rules. It looked like the first one was a defensive reaction to Kisenosato clearly jumping the gun, and that set the stage for the second one to be a surprise, which I was glad to see didn't completely fool Kisenosato. There were at least four henka today, none of which led to instant victory, which shows that at last those who should be the real targets of derision--the lame ones shooting themselves out of a cannon relying on the opponent to be there to catch them--are starting to figure it out. If they get a bit better at reacting, henka will be gone for the only reason it should be gone, when it doesn't work. After all, if moving backward and sideways was an inherently good strategy, Goeido would have a few yusho.

[Morty 1,505]

I am also thinking that this is Kisenosato's best chance of a yusho..... and it is still in his hands.

Not sure what you mean by this; if Terunofuji manages to win both of his matches, Kisenosato has no chance.

If the Yokozuna beats 'sato' tomorrow it is also game over for 'sato'. :-)

Imagine the rage if he pulls a henka on Kise Would be funny but hoping for a shennanigans free last few days.

Not one but two...

[HenryK 38]

How pitiful the calls of shame on Kakuryu while the henka addict Harumafuji has never faced this criticism. Henka is clearly within the rules. It looked like the first one was a defensive reaction to Kisenosato clearly jumping the gun, and that set the stage for the second one to be a surprise, which I was glad to see didn't completely fool Kisenosato. There were at least four henka today, none of which led to instant victory, which shows that at last those who should be the real targets of derision--the lame ones shooting themselves out of a cannon relying on the opponent to be there to catch them--are starting to figure it out. If they get a bit better at reacting, henka will be gone for the only reason it should be gone, when it doesn't work. After all, if moving backward and sideways was an inherently good strategy, Goeido would have a few yusho.

I agree with this. As soon as someone pulls a henka, folks here swarm out with this I-want-my-money-back attitude. But henka is a legitimate part of sumo, and a high-ranking Ozeki should be able to deal with this under any circumstances. As Kisenosato did, he countered the henka and almost won the bout. Except that Kakuryu came up with an even better counter.

Edited September 26, 2015 by HenryK

[wuli 67]

hearing 'weasel', who comes to mind?

[WAKATAKE 2,677]

For the record I have never been a fan of Harumafuji doing henka nor anybody in general doing henka. I understand that it is completely legal and that people have to do whatever they can to win. However in a match like the one today, it tears down the hype of what could have been an even more exciting match. Feel free to disagree with my way of thinking.

[Tsubame 368]

the Kyokai should urge Kakaryu to retire...before he disgraces the Yokozuna rank even more

Please explain why should they do this?!

Since when is a henka a disgrace for a yokozuna? Ok, Kakuryu is not the best yokozuna we have ever seen (and I don't see the need that he has to be one of the best), but he never sticked out in a negative way as yokozuna.

[WAKATAKE 2,677]

the Kyokai should urge Kakaryu to retire...before he disgraces the Yokozuna rank even more

Please explain why should they do this?!

Since when is a henka a disgrace for a yokozuna? Ok, Kakuryu is not the best yokozuna we have ever seen (and I don't see the need that he has to be one of the best), but he never sticked out in a negative way as yokozuna.

It's called "hinkaku." Which is basically the quality of behavior which a Yokozuna exerts himself both on and off the mat. The Kyokai and the Yokozuna Deliberation Council will consider this when an Ozeki is trying for a tsunatori and also after he becomes a Yokozuna. To my understanding the Kyokai and the YDC do not like it when yokozuna pull henka because it is unbecoming of a yokozuna to sidestep an opponent, as a yokozuna should always accept a challenge head on. Bad hinkaku yokozuna cases include Asashoryu and Futahaguro.

[Asashosakari 19,687]

I bet the YDC will make some unspecific comment about "quality of sumo", and the whole matter will be forgotten in Japan by Wednesday.

[Mongolith 51]

If Asa is the Hinkaku standard before the noose tightens then Kak has a lot of rope to play with. I don't think Kak should resort to those moves but calling for his head/retirement is a bit much. A couple apologetic words and maybe slightly stooping his head during his victory parade should be enough atonement. Hell its not like the henka was even that succesfull as it was the counter that won it.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Mongolith

[Yubinhaad 11,768]

Huh. First day since Day 3 of 2006 Natsu that there were no Yokozuna on the dohyo?

Seriously though, calling for Kakuryu's intai is way over the top, this isn't that serious. It's clearly not Yokozuna sumo, it's sumo from a man who earned the Yokozuna rank almost two years ago, and has done little of note since then. No Yokozuna can live on past glories forever, which is why I think Harumafuji is fast running out of credit. With Hakuho and Harumafuji out and Terunofuji hobbling, Kakuryu is taking this golden opportunity for a yusho. Kisenosato dominates their head-to-head, so it's to be expected that he would try something unorthodox in their bout.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

I don't get the "Asashoryu set the standards for really low hinkaku" business at all. As far as I can tell, the fire he was conjuring up was mostly due to his up-yours attitude towards the elders (part of that resulting from being a ward of a less than a little unfocused oyakata). At the same time, he invoked terror in all but the toughest opponents. And THAT is the core quality of any Yokozuna in my book. Other grandmasters were treated much more kindly for their shortcomings outside of the ring.

[inhashi 2,363]

Can't wait to see Shohozan back in makuuchi \(`o`)/ Congratulations!

[rzombie1988 159]

Kakuryu henka'ing his way to the title. Seriously not yokozuna like at all. You just know, and I mean know, that down the line, someone's gonna cost him a title by giving it back to him. Very disappointing. I was not a fan of Kak becoming a yokozuna from the start but was warming up since he upped his game. He's the only Yokozuna left and he still has to take shortcuts.

Harumafuji doesn't do true henka's. He makes contact on the tachi-ai, then wraps around. To me a henka is when you purposely get out of the way, which is what Kakuryu did twice today. No attempt at contact, just grab the head and jump out.

I don't even like Kisenosato and didn't think he deserved to win, but he deserved better than that.

Edited September 26, 2015 by rzombie1988

[dingo 1,303]

Holy crap Kakuryu how lame can you be! Bowing out of a straight-on fight against a worthy opponent is not a hallmark of a great yokozuna.

And Sadanofuji could've won his fight if he could generate any power at all. He has a similar body type to Terunofuji and Ichinojo, but doesn't have any power at all...

It's the first time I'm quoting myself, but I really have not much else to say.... guess Kakuryuu is really, really, REALLY desperate for his first yokozuna yusho.

[evilwaldo 11]

Why are people upset? Kisensato jumped early and it was rightly called a matta. Kakuryuu had his arms resting on his legs. There was no henka the first time.

[Katooshu 3,335]

There should be nothing shameful about evading an over-eager opponent and using their aggression against them. It's not as if a henka is impossible to effectively deal with either, and if a rikishi reacts correctly to an attempted henka it often puts them in an advantageous position.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Kotooshu's Revenge

[dingo 1,303]

Why are people upset? Kisensato jumped early and it was rightly called a matta. Kakuryuu had his arms resting on his legs. There was no henka the first time.

It only seems like Kisenosato moved early cause Kakuryuu had no intention to move forward and was simply waiting for the right time to henka him. It was a blatant henka.

[dingo 1,303]

I don't get the "Asashoryu set the standards for really low hinkaku" business at all. As far as I can tell, the fire he was conjuring up was mostly due to his up-yours attitude towards the elders (part of that resulting from being a ward of a less than a little unfocused oyakata). At the same time, he invoked terror in all but the toughest opponents. And THAT is the core quality of any Yokozuna in my book. Other grandmasters were treated much more kindly for their shortcomings outside of the ring.

Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

[evilwaldo 11]

Why are people upset? Kisensato jumped early and it was rightly called a matta. Kakuryuu had his arms resting on his legs. There was no henka the first time.

It only seems like Kisenosato moved early cause Kakuryuu had no intention to move forward and was simply waiting for the right time to henka him. It was a blatant henka.

Well, Kakruyuu is the Yokozuna and highest ranked person so his hands have to touch the ground last. Kisensato jumped early. Matta and you cannot henka a matta.

If Kisensato hit Kakruyuu it would have been very disrespectful to matta and hit a Yokozuna.

Edited September 26, 2015 by evilwaldo

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

I'm gonna holdout hope that Terunofuji can "Channel Takanohana" and win. YES, I KNOW, he should think about his career, but what a yusho it would be. 12-3-P would be a nice start to his run.

[torquato 1,075]

If Teru loses the bout, the result wouldn't be enough for a run. A lost ketteisen would qualify Kakuryuish. Win-win for both. Maybe they find an agreement? Huu.... That's a conspiracy theory.

[HenryK 38]

I don't get the "Asashoryu set the standards for really low hinkaku" business at all. As far as I can tell, the fire he was conjuring up was mostly due to his up-yours attitude towards the elders (part of that resulting from being a ward of a less than a little unfocused oyakata). At the same time, he invoked terror in all but the toughest opponents. And THAT is the core quality of any Yokozuna in my book. Other grandmasters were treated much more kindly for their shortcomings outside of the ring.

Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

A henka is no disgrace. Never has been, never will be.

[Gurowake 4,109]

If Teru loses the bout, the result wouldn't be enough for a run. A lost ketteisen would qualify Kakuryuish. Win-win for both. Maybe they find an agreement? Huu.... That's a conspiracy theory.

I don't think a 12-3 D counts nearly as much as a 14-1 D, especially when the 12-3 is without top rikishi participating (although I have no clue how much that factors in). 12 wins is usually not good enough to win a yusho, so I don't think as 12-3 D should be considered an "equivalent" performance to a yusho, whereas 14 definitely should be. If he pulls a zensho in Fukuoka, then *maybe* they'll promote him with that result this basho, but the likelihood of all those thing happening is pretty low.

[Gurowake 4,109]

I don't get the "Asashoryu set the standards for really low hinkaku" business at all. As far as I can tell, the fire he was conjuring up was mostly due to his up-yours attitude towards the elders (part of that resulting from being a ward of a less than a little unfocused oyakata). At the same time, he invoked terror in all but the toughest opponents. And THAT is the core quality of any Yokozuna in my book. Other grandmasters were treated much more kindly for their shortcomings outside of the ring.

Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

A henka is no disgrace. Never has been, never will be.

It is to some people, whether it "should" be or not. To some, part of the way of being a rikishi is about forward-moving power, and a henka is the antithesis of that. It also cheapens the spectacle somewhat when it immediately ends the match, although I admit that it's an even better spectacle when it's used and fails.