June 9, 2025 - Hail the GOAT!

[Kaminariyuki 519]

I thought about starting two threads, one for why we liked him, and a second for why we didn't. LOL, I suspect many folks could contribute to both, but it seems unreasonable to me that Sumo Forum should bid goodbye to the GOAT without a dedicated thread to the title above. I hope one, or more, of the stats folks will list some of the more interesting records. We all know he raised the cup 45 times, 13 more than Taiho and 14 more than Chiyonofuji. Sixteen times he went zensho yusho, twice as many as his nearest rival. Most career wins, most wins in the top division, most wins in a calendar year (86 out of a possible 90, wrestling exclusively the best 15 competitors in the sport), twice, in consecutive years. He was strong, devilish quick and cunning, reversing and dancing the tawara like no other. He possessed a single minded drive to win, something not universally appreciated, but in this sport was amazing to watch. Even the antics were entertaining. I recall a basho where a lower megashira, maybe a newer guy, ended up separating from Hakuho during a match. As they stood crouched, only slightly for Hakuho, he motioned with a hand to "come on kid, bring me your best shot." His art and execution of sumo are unmatched, but he was also a great teacher. As a single example, take Enho's tutelage, of which there is no doubt (at a scant 100 kg or so, 9 basho in makuuchi, a high rank of megashira 4, and a gino-sho). The spectacle and performance of Enho captivated even my wife! As a teacher, Oyakata Miyagino had the potential to have been among the greatest instructors of the sport in history, and that has now been denied to him and to us. A shame, IMO. 

Sources say he has plans and we haven't seen the last of him, but as for the NSK, it appears it is the end of the professional career of Miyagino Oyakata (ex-Hakuho). I, for one, salute you!

 

Edited June 13 by Kaminariyuki
LOL, typo in Hakuho's name...

[hakutorizakura 673]

2 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

he motioned with a hand to "come on kid, bring me your best shot."

I remember one bout with a young, hard-pushing, stubborn Takakeisho, if that's what you mean. (The outcome of that bout was obvious)

[hakutorizakura 673]

And to stay to the topic, he's half the reason for my shikona. The other half is the WOAT 

[yorikiried by fate 2,035]

Hakuho was the ultimate absorber. The absolute best in neutralizing any tachi-ai offset right from the start. In a way, the empirical opposite of the other dude I'm always sh*tting on.

Anyway, as of now, the overall GOAT, no doubt.

Nevertheless, I will never forgive him for henkaing the 13-1 Hokutoriki on the final day of his (Hakuho's) Makuuchi debut basho, where he was 11-3, kanto-sho secured, nothing to gain. Hokutoriki, the people's Yokozuna, who had worked his ass off in the lower divisions for half his career had his once-in-a-lifetime shot at the pot(s), even defeating Asashoryu in regulation, just to be sent back to the mad dragon in a play-off redo (which he lost, of course). Shame on you, Big H...

[junsan 201]

Few other sports have their Hakuhos. I think the man deserves his own post-Kyokai-activities thread. Maybe this could be that?

[Kaitetsu 315]

4 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

I recall a basho where a lower megashira, maybe a newer guy, ended up separating from AHkuho during a match. As they stood crouched, only slightly for Hakuho, he motioned with a hand to "come on kid, bring me your best shot."

I believe it was maybe Hakuho vs Tobizaru in Nagoya 2021?

[Fashiritētā 195]

The list of Sports GOATs

Hakuho

Bill Russell

Tiger Woods

Michael Jordan

Pete Rose ( a lot like Hakuho in terms of killer instinct)

Messi

Pele

just to name a few.

[Yamanashi 3,988]

4 hours ago, junsan said:

Few other sports have their Hakuhos. I think the man deserves his own post-Kyokai-activities thread. Maybe this could be that?

There is a "(Takano)hanada activities" thread over in Japan-Japanese Discussions, so I suppose this would go there, too [even though he's not native Japanese].

[Asashosakari 19,941]

6 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

There is a "(Takano)hanada activities" thread over in Japan-Japanese Discussions, so I suppose this would go there, too [even though he's not native Japanese].

Either that, or Amasumo, or Off-topic, depending on what he actually does. (Maybe we should have a poll to find out what people expect to see happening...)
 

16 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

As a teacher, Oyakata Miyagino had the potential to have been among the greatest instructors of the sport in history, and that has now been denied to him and to us.

It's not like many people were still expecting to see that potential realized after how badly he bungled his first year and a half at it. To me, it's much like watching a university-trained rikishi in his first few tournaments. If he goes straight to makushita it doesn't mean much because it's simply the expected thing that they all do. If he gets stuck in jonidan already, it's pretty safe to say that he's not actually all that good. Hakuho became shisho having trained his own recruits for a decade already, lack of experience can't be used as an excuse. Outside of having the right connections to recruit talent that's good from the start, what abilities did he actually demonstrate?

Edited June 7 by Asashosakari

[Godango 1,054]

12 hours ago, Fashiritētā said:

The list of Sports GOATs

Hakuho

Bill Russell

Tiger Woods

Michael Jordan

Pete Rose ( a lot like Hakuho in terms of killer instinct)

Messi

Pele

just to name a few.

Don Bradman -- statistically the greatest sportsman of all time. 

[lackmaker 446]

Messi & Pele?

[Yamanashi 3,988]

6 hours ago, lackmaker said:

Messi & Pele?

Yeah, that's the flaw in using the "A" in GOAT.  Almost every sport has changed markedly over the last 50 years, and comparing competitors from the distant past to present-day seems unfair.

[Reonito 1,613]

20 hours ago, Fashiritētā said:

The list of Sports GOATs

Bill Russell and Michael Jordan played the same sport, so you kinda have to choose one for the GOAT moniker, unless you start to break it down by position. But Russell ahead of Wilt at center would be ... controversial. And surely there are dozens of baseball players you'd pick ahead of Rose, starting with Babe Ruth. Few sports have someone who's as much of an outlier as Hakuho.

[maglor 125]

9 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Bill Russell and Michael Jordan played the same sport, so you kinda have to choose one for the GOAT moniker, unless you start to break it down by position. But Russell ahead of Wilt at center would be ... controversial. And surely there are dozens of baseball players you'd pick ahead of Rose, starting with Babe Ruth. Few sports have someone who's as much of an outlier as Hakuho.

Taiho won 32 yusho, Hakuho won 45. Is that really such an extreme outlier?

I don't really get the need for sports fans to insist that their sport's goat is greater than everyone else's goat. seems like a pointless discussion. sumo is a smaller sport and so there is room for more outliers at the top than bigger sports. is it possible or worthwhile to debate whether phil taylor(darts) is more or less of an outlier than hakuho?

[RabidJohn 1,943]

2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Yeah, that's the flaw in using the "A" in GOAT.  Almost every sport has changed markedly over the last 50 years, and comparing competitors from the distant past to present-day seems unfair.

Maybe it's time for GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era.

[Wakawakawaka 186]

Do we really need all these fancy acronyms? Can't we just call him Hakuho?

He
Always
Kept
Uwatenage'ing
His
Onigiri

[ViscountessNivlac 33]

1 hour ago, maglor said:

Taiho won 32 yusho, Hakuho won 45. Is that really such an extreme outlier?

Considering just winning the difference would make somebody the eighth winningest rikishi of all time, probably, yeah?

[Reonito 1,613]

1 hour ago, maglor said:

Taiho won 32 yusho, Hakuho won 45. Is that really such an extreme outlier?

I don't really get the need for sports fans to insist that their sport's goat is greater than everyone else's goat. seems like a pointless discussion. sumo is a smaller sport and so there is room for more outliers at the top than bigger sports. is it possible or worthwhile to debate whether phil taylor(darts) is more or less of an outlier than hakuho?

Fair enough, sorry to stir up every sports bar debate ever, let's just remember Hakuho's remarkable career. As the saying goes, "comparison is the thief of joy." 

[Fashiritētā 195]

5 hours ago, Reonito said:

Bill Russell and Michael Jordan played the same sport, so you kinda have to choose one for the GOAT moniker, unless you start to break it down by position. But Russell ahead of Wilt at center would be ... controversial. And surely there are dozens of baseball players you'd pick ahead of Rose, starting with Babe Ruth. Few sports have someone who's as much of an outlier as Hakuho.

Russell won 11 titles, one as a coach/player.

Yes Wilt was awesome, but he did not have a more rounded team than Russell.

I get the one of each sport, i was going by different Era’s , as the rules changed a lot as well as the physicality, from Russells time to Jordan’s time.

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

11 hours ago, Reonito said:

Bill Russell and Michael Jordan played the same sport, so you kinda have to choose one for the GOAT moniker, unless you start to break it down by position. But Russell ahead of Wilt at center would be ... controversial. And surely there are dozens of baseball players you'd pick ahead of Rose, starting with Babe Ruth. Few sports have someone who's as much of an outlier as Hakuho.

Also, basketball is a team sport; individual success in it is much more difficult to compare. 

[Kaminariyuki 519]

On 07/06/2025 at 00:23, Asashosakari said:

It's not like many people were still expecting to see that potential realized after how badly he bungled his first year and a half at it. To me, it's much like watching a university-trained rikishi in his first few tournaments. If he goes straight to makushita it doesn't mean much because it's simply the expected thing that they all do. If he gets stuck in jonidan already, it's pretty safe to say that he's not actually all that good. Hakuho became shisho having trained his own recruits for a decade already, lack of experience can't be used as an excuse. Outside of having the right connections to recruit talent that's good from the start, what abilities did he actually demonstrate?

No offense intended, but I think this belongs in the thread I did not create for the plethora of Hakuho detractors. Besides, you know so much more about sumo history and workings than I, that even if I'm right, I'd never match up in an argument with you on any sumo topic. My take is solely based on the performance of Enho and Ishiura, and on my own observations over a single morning in January 2020. Feel free to start a Hakuho/Miyagino good-bye and good riddance thread, though, if you like.

[just_some_guy 294]

On 06/06/2025 at 12:09, Kaitetsu said:

I believe it was maybe Hakuho vs Tobizaru in Nagoya 2021?

It was Takakeisho, but I couldn't tell you what year, much less basho. I just remember Hakuho standing there like it was butsukari.

[Gospodin 240]

I will always remember his almost complete invincibility when he had his left uwate grip. Beautiful to watch.

[Kishinoyama 603]

On 10/06/2025 at 15:30, Kaminariyuki said:

No offense intended, but I think this belongs in the thread I did not create for the plethora of Hakuho detractors. Besides, you know so much more about sumo history and workings than I, that even if I'm right, I'd never match up in an argument with you on any sumo topic. My take is solely based on the performance of Enho and Ishiura, and on my own observations over a single morning in January 2020. Feel free to start a Hakuho/Miyagino good-bye and good riddance thread, though, if you like.

I signed in just to like your comment. The person that replied negatively in this thread has always felt that way about Hakuho the rikishi and that did not change when he became Miyagino. I guess ex-Kisenosato is a “great oyakata” now that he recruited Onosato. I am certain that Onosato would have been a huge failure if he had decided to go to another heya. Yes, that is sarcasm.

As Kintamayama stated, he should have taken the hint that he was not welcome in the oyakata realm when he was denied ichidai toshiyori (“It was no longer needed”) and he also had to sign the “be a good boy” agreement. 
 

My hope is that Hakuho can promote amateur sumo around the world and introduce more young people to sumo. That would be a good thing, in my opinion. I will be signing back out now. 
 

Cheers to the GOAT = Hakuho

Edited June 13 by Kishinoyama
Worded incorrectly….

[Gospodin 240]

He was also one of the very rare wrestlers to call for a mono-ii sitting ringside.