Kaisei Intai

[Asashosakari 19,943]

10 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Yes, it originated from me, like the earth itself... 

Kintamachikyuu desu ka

[Godango 1,054]

11 hours ago, themistyseas said:

The other unmentioned wrinkle is that Kaisei himself possesses exactly the number of top division basho required to branch out and open his own Tomozuna-beya. Whether he has the support group behind him or the desire to do that is another question, but it's an intriguing possibility for an Isegahama ichimon whose leadership may have a bit of a youth movement in the next few years.

What is this number exactly? I'm sure I've searched the forum before but manage to find references to it only. I have Kaisei at 59 makunouchi basho which seems like an odd number to be exact -- unless it's 60 basho and his COVID-19 enforced sit-out of Haru 2021 still counts?

[Asashosakari 19,943]

2 minutes ago, Godango said:

What is this number exactly? I'm sure I've searched the forum before but manage to find references to it only. I have Kaisei at 59 makunouchi basho which seems like an odd number to be exact -- unless it's 60 basho and his COVID-19 enforced sit-out of Haru 2021 still counts?

Of course it counts. Failing to compete is never grounds for discounting a basho from a rikishi's appearance tally. (Unless the reason is a suspension, perhaps.) Absent rikishi are getting their basho bonuses paid, and they're also getting retirement bonus money for such tournaments. It would be odd if the Kyokai decided to treat things differently for the oyakata career requirements.

[since_94 650]

9 hours ago, yohcun said:

Could that be after the Kisenosato bout Aki 2018? I only remember it because he was so exhausted he was pulling faces like that up the hanamichi.

Don’t remember but I thought his expression was priceless. As I recall, it had been a long and obviously exhausting bout. The guy is just so unpretentious and eminently likable. Always exhibits good sportsmanship, win or lose. I’m sure he’ll make a great oyakata.

[Godango 1,054]

11 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Of course it counts. Failing to compete is never grounds for discounting a basho from a rikishi's appearance tally. (Unless the reason is a suspension, perhaps.) Absent rikishi are getting their basho bonuses paid, and they're also getting retirement bonus money for such tournaments. It would be odd if the Kyokai decided to treat things differently for the oyakata career requirements.

Right, it's obvious when you think about it like that. So it would be fair to assume that cancelled tournaments are treated the same way?

[Asashosakari 19,943]

3 minutes ago, Godango said:

So it would be fair to assume that cancelled tournaments are treated the same way?

No real idea, to be honest. I kind of doubt that monetary bonuses were paid out for tournaments that didn't happen, but I wouldn't be surprised by favourable treatment if there's ever an edge case for the oyakata requirements, since those rules can be overridden by simple board majority anyway.

[since_94 650]

10 hours ago, sumojoann said:

This photo is hilarious!  Did you take this picture?

No, that’s a screenshot. Possibly one of the best sumo candids ever

[Jabbamaru 169]

Grande Kaisei! Do Bom Retiro pro Kokugikan! Um feito gigantesco!

Sayonara sekiwake!

[Benevolance 2,519]

Aw, man. We'd better hide this news before Bettega shows up. We'll say that Kaisei is, uh, napping! Yeah. He's just napping. 

[Katooshu 3,416]

We'll still see the big guy around! Without having to see him in pain on the dohyo too, it's not that bad.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Katooshu

[Yamanashi 3,988]

6 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Yes, it originated from me, like the earth itself... 

I can attest to the "Kaisei A and Kaisei B" part for sure.  As for the earth part, I'm checking my sources (got Isaiah on speed dial as we speak).

[Kamitsuumi 408]

 

[Naganoyama 5,971]

Kaisei must have learnt the A/B thing from close contact with Kaio, who was a true master at the art...

[themistyseas 242]

13 hours ago, Godango said:

14 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Of course it counts. Failing to compete is never grounds for discounting a basho from a rikishi's appearance tally. (Unless the reason is a suspension, perhaps.) Absent rikishi are getting their basho bonuses paid, and they're also getting retirement bonus money for such tournaments. It would be odd if the Kyokai decided to treat things differently for the oyakata career requirements.

 Right, it's obvious when you think about it like that. So it would be fair to assume that cancelled tournaments are treated the same way?

A pretty important cultural distinction is that sometimes we think about the basho as the end all and be all, and if we reframe it not as appearances on the dohyo but appearances on the banzuke, then it can be easier to digest and understand. As @Asashosakari rightly relates, the reason for the missed basho isn't necessarily relevant whether it's illness or injury or the crazy circumstances we see these days. If you view the banzuke as the record keeping artifact that it is for every basho, then it's easy to understand and relate that 60 times, Kaisei was listed among the makuuchi rikishi. It's also good to know that the banzuke itself is not a sumo-only concept - in fact if you check out Edo-era exhibits in museums around Japan, you may be able to see a listing in a very similar format and style for things like theatre performers.

[Kaitetsu 315]

Quick question, was it said anywhere if he had actually bought the kabu or is simply borrowing it? On the list of sumo elders, Wikipedia has a footnote saying that Kaisei is just borrowing the kabu, but I was pretty sure he had bought it?

[themistyseas 242]

38 minutes ago, Kaitetsu said:

Quick question, was it said anywhere if he had actually bought the kabu or is simply borrowing it? On the list of sumo elders, Wikipedia has a footnote saying that Kaisei is just borrowing the kabu, but I was pretty sure he had bought it?

The official listing on the kyokai's website has him listed above only the sanyo and below all of the other presumed borrowers, so I would imagine it's technically still on loan from Kaiki.

Of course the wheels may be in motion for him to take the share fully, but I imagine that with the announcement coming when it did (immediately upon dropping from Juryo), there may yet be paperwork to sort out and presumably a deal to be made behind the scenes.

Edited to add: worth pointing out as well that the Wikipedia page (at least in English) is a little lax on the updates as well: it's also missing another couple of borrowers (Izutsu and Sanoyama) and three of the sanyo haven't been relocated from their previous positions in the kyokai. So as ever, worth taking the crowd-sourced content with a few grains of dohyo salt (not unlike a message board? Haha!)

Edited August 30, 2022 by themistyseas

[Seiyashi 4,109]

46 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

The official listing on the kyokai's website has him listed above only the sanyo and below all of the other presumed borrowers, so I would imagine it's technically still on loan from Kaiki.

Of course the wheels may be in motion for him to take the share fully, but I imagine that with the announcement coming when it did (immediately upon dropping from Juryo), there may yet be paperwork to sort out and presumably a deal to be made behind the scenes.

Edited to add: worth pointing out as well that the Wikipedia page (at least in English) is a little lax on the updates as well: it's also missing another couple of borrowers (Izutsu and Sanoyama) and three of the sanyo haven't been relocated from their previous positions in the kyokai. So as ever, worth taking the crowd-sourced content with a few grains of dohyo salt (not unlike a message board? Haha!)

To add to - or maybe kick over - those grains of salt, Kaisei IIRC took citizenship some time ago, in 2014 or 2015. If he was indeed going to be the new owner of Tomozuna, one would think that he'd also have talked to ex-Kaiki about it since and arranged to take it over. Also, if he was in fact going to be the owner, I don't think the NSK would have had any issue with listing him as such even if some paperwork hadn't been completed, if the deal was going to happen anyway. And also, if he was in fact assured of a kabu, then maybe he wouldn't have minded holding on in the salaried ranks until he could assume the myōseki fully? It's a natural inflection point to retire on the fall to makushita but it suggests that the decision to invest him with Tomozuna was rather impromptu.

[Kaitetsu 315]

13 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

To add to - or maybe kick over - those grains of salt, Kaisei IIRC took citizenship some time ago, in 2014 or 2015. If he was indeed going to be the new owner of Tomozuna, one would think that he'd also have talked to ex-Kaiki about it since and arranged to take it over. Also, if he was in fact going to be the owner, I don't think the NSK would have had any issue with listing him as such even if some paperwork hadn't been completed, if the deal was going to happen anyway. And also, if he was in fact assured of a kabu, then maybe he wouldn't have minded holding on in the salaried ranks until he could assume the myōseki fully? It's a natural inflection point to retire on the fall to makushita but it suggests that the decision to invest him with Tomozuna was rather impromptu.

But wasn't Kaisei his last great pupil that still had not retired? Wouldn't he have wanted Kaisei anyway to inherit it?

Edited August 30, 2022 by Kaitetsu

[Seiyashi 4,109]

36 minutes ago, Kaitetsu said:

But wasn't Kaisei his last great pupil that still had not retired? Wouldn't he have wanted Kaisei anyway to inherit it?

That's what I thought about ex-Wakashimazu and Shōhōzan, and look where they ended up. We don't always get to see all the dirty mawashi being hung out to dry, if you get my drift.

I do hope that Kaisei does manage to secure Tomozuna in the long term, and that it is a bureaucratic cock up or something similarly inconsequential that is leading to him being listed as a borrower, but the initial signs are a little worrying.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Kaitetsu 315]

6 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

That's what I thought about ex-Wakashimazu and Shōhōzan, and look where they ended up. We don't always get to see all the dirty mawashi being hung out to dry, if you get my drift.

I hope that Kaisei does manage to secure Tomozuna in the long term, and that it is a bureaucratic cock up that is leading to him being listed as a borrower, but the initial signs are a little worrying.

Yeah, I see your point. I really do hope so as well, seeing as, I do not see anyone else who might covet the Tomozuna-kabu, bute well, we never know...

[themistyseas 242]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

To add to - or maybe kick over - those grains of salt, Kaisei IIRC took citizenship some time ago, in 2014 or 2015. If he was indeed going to be the new owner of Tomozuna, one would think that he'd also have talked to ex-Kaiki about it since and arranged to take it over. Also, if he was in fact going to be the owner, I don't think the NSK would have had any issue with listing him as such even if some paperwork hadn't been completed, if the deal was going to happen anyway. And also, if he was in fact assured of a kabu, then maybe he wouldn't have minded holding on in the salaried ranks until he could assume the myōseki fully? It's a natural inflection point to retire on the fall to makushita but it suggests that the decision to invest him with Tomozuna was rather impromptu.

Aren't we all weird people that this is part of what makes sumo great, but it in some ways really is - the lineage of the names and the politics that have been involved for generations in being able to ascend to a prestigious name, or sometimes in fact any name!

One missing piece of the puzzle - and one that lends a little bit more credibility to your hypothesis in fact - is that ex-Kaiki retired from active sanyo duty under the Tomozuna name before Kaisei's last basho. Presumably, if he was next in line, he'd have been next in line even if he hadn't dropped to Juryo (in a world where he could have posted the kind of kachikoshi scores down in Juryo that Okinoumi has been doing in makuuchi the last few years, getting one solid result every so often to extend his career by a further 6 months here or there, he may even have been in position to have acquired it and loaned it out to someone else).

So it is a little odd on the face of it - but at the same time I do just have the feeling it's paperwork holding it up. Officially of course for the last 10 years or so the kyokai has brokered kabu trades, but I imagine that for guys who owned names for decades before that policy came into being, (like Kaiki who picked up his share over 24 years before the changes were made a decade ago) their exit conversation around the ROI for the transfer of their name is a little more complicated than it will be for the next generation, whose affairs will have been fully managed in house. I could be wrong, but these transfers due seem to be getting murky in other ways now that they're managed in-house (see: Toyonoshima saying he was "making payments" on a name he was later unable to acquire, well after the policy change was enacted).

[Asashosakari 19,943]

It could also just be an error on the Kyokai site. They rushed the update adding him to the oyakata overview page, but he's not yet on the duties page which I tend to consider more authoritative.

[Karasukurai 168]

Bye Kaisei, best wishes for your future. One of my favs because he seemed to be such a nice guy.

[Akinomaki 41,182]

Kaisei had the intai press conference today at the sumo school in the kokugikan, with Oshima-oyakata and in the end ex-Kaio joined in - Kaisei had been his tsukebito for a time. As Tomozuna he'll be instructing the rikishi in Oshima-beya. o

 

[Akinomaki 41,182]

As the most memorable bout, Kaisei named the win over ozeki Takayasu on day 10 of the Nagoya basho 2018

o o

maybe also because of the media attention after the bout

o

with ex-Wakaazuma, who guided him into ozumo. They first met at a dojo in Sao Paolo, where Kuroda-san wanted to train youths preparing for the world championships and the 17y old Ricardo asked him for a bout. He came with no intention to do sumo and wanted to show the youth that real sumo isn't that easy, but Ricardo didn't lose heart and continued to ask for another bout. This and the youth's strong wish to go into ozumo impressed him and he kept coming to the dojo each Sunday to train with him and prepare him for the life in the sumo world

o

the intai press conference

oo oo

o

ooo

  o  

Edited August 31, 2022 by Akinomaki