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Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

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Posted (edited)

For all intents and purposes, I have lost complete respect in Shimpan-cho Onomatsu.  In other words, today's Top Division monoii decision was the straw that broke the camel's back.  To be fair, four other judges went along with the decision.  But all the replays that NHK threw on the screen during the marathon monoii did not come close to showing clear evidence that Tochinoshin stepped out.  I hereby call for Onomatsu's resignation.  (I am seriously expecting him to be gone when the Nagoya Tournament starts this July.)

The English commentator, Hiro Morita, made a good point, suggesting that a torinaoshi rematch would be best.  I suspect that the judges did not really consider that as a option.  But perhaps that would have been the fairest decision given that the judges had strong suspicions that Tochinoshin's heel touched out first, but no clear evidence.

This event will be remembered for a long time ago come.  Oddly enough, video review was introduced when judges made the wrong call in a Taiho bout back in March 1969!  50 years later, a situation arises that renders video review ineffective.  (I accept the possibility that there was a better camera angle that the NSK had, but that footage is not being released ... for security reasons?)

The commentary mentioned that after yesterday's loss to Meisei, Tochinoshin was heard shouting (at himself) in the bathtub of the shitakubeya change room.  Unfortunately, it was in Georgian, so no translation was forthcoming.  I can just imagine what Tochinoshin was shouting after today's decision.

(Hitthewall...)

 

Edited by Amamaniac

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7 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

For all intents and purposes, I have lost complete respect in Shimpan-cho Onomatsu.  In other words, today's Top Division monoii decision was the straw that broke the camel's back.  To be fair, four other judges went along with the decision.  But all the replays that NHK threw on the screen during the marathon monoii did not come close to showing clear evidence that Tochinoshin stepped out.  I hereby call for Onomatsu's resignation.  (I am seriously expecting him to be gone when the Nagoya Tournament starts this July.)

I was thinking seppuku, but I suppose I can compromise and accept a resignation.

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7 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I was thinking seppuku, but I suppose I can compromise and accept a resignation.

Seppuku would be too easy!

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18 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Seppuku would be too easy!

What if Tochinoshin is his second and refuses to finish him off?

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

It would actually be kind of sad, because I doubt any of us would begrudge Asanoyama the yusho. Who doesn't love a hiramaku win? But his win, if it happens, would always be tainted by the result of that 13th bout. He doesn't deserve to have his whole championship called into question, but it will be. Heck, it already is as we're discussing it here.

Maybe we're getting a little ahead of the situation. He may still win the yusho by at least 2 clear wins. It wouldn't look quite so awful then. 

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51 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

The English commentator, Hiro Morita, made a good point, suggesting that a torinaoshi rematch would be best.  I suspect that the judges did not really consider that as a option.  But perhaps that would have been the fairest decision given that the judges had strong suspicions that Tochinoshin's heel touched out first, but no clear evidence.

Someone at Tachiai said apparently you can only have torinaoshi if there's a dotai (where both rikishi touch simultaneously and it's hard to call) as opposed to it just being sketchy with a single rikishi.  I'm not aware of this rule though.  Any older/wiser folks here know? 

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Speculation on why it took so long:

--debate over whether it could be a rematch first.  They got this part right.  There is no chance of a tie here, the heel was either down, or not down.

--debate over specifically what to ask the video people to check.  Here is where they could have gone wrong.  The key evidence is not in any of the photos of the heel near the sand.  The key evidence is the split second AFTER the heel is lifted, before Asanoyama falls with his left wrist/hand in precisely the same spot.  The sand is completely unmarked.  If they asked the video room to decide based only on the frames with the heel over the tawara, they missed the best evidence.

It's Japan in 2019.  The judges shouldn't even have to get up.  One judge has a cell phone to talk with the video boys.  Why not give them all cellphones and let them all see video and discuss while seated?

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I think on the balance of evidence, that his heel probably wasn't out.

However, to play devil's advocate, there is an old adage in combat sports that the best way to win is to win clean so there can be no doubting the win. The instant you let the judges get involved you are in trouble. Always better to knock out your opponent than let the judges decide who won the fight. There are about eight million boxing matches that prove this to be true.

Not counting the fusensho, Tochinoshin won his first eight going forward. When he lost to Endo he was going forward. The loss to Abi was neither forward nor backwards (coz it was too fast). The last two days he has been going backwards and attempting to pull. Either he has hurt himself again, or he is worn out, or he has stopped doing what wins him bouts (getting on the belt and lifting aite out). Going against Kak tomorrow and then whoever he is matched against Sunday, I hope he goes back to grabbing the belt and going forward. 

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1 minute ago, Morty said:

I think on the balance of evidence, that his heel probably wasn't out.

However, to play devil's advocate, there is an old adage in combat sports that the best way to win is to win clean so there can be no doubting the win. The instant you let the judges get involved you are in trouble. Always better to knock out your opponent than let the judges decide who won the fight. There are about eight million boxing matches that prove this to be true.

Not counting the fusensho, Tochinoshin won his first eight going forward. When he lost to Endo he was going forward. The loss to Abi was neither forward nor backwards (coz it was too fast). The last two days he has been going backwards and attempting to pull. Either he has hurt himself again, or he is worn out, or he has stopped doing what wins him bouts (getting on the belt and lifting aite out). Going against Kak tomorrow and then whoever he is matched against Sunday, I hope he goes back to grabbing the belt and going forward. 

I’m not sure Asanoyama can claim a clean win either.

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Posted (edited)

@Morty Agreed, sort of. The question whether Tochinoshin's heel touched down is kind of academical, whereas there's no doubt about his heel being out. Can't really blame anyone but himself.

Edit: ...or to put it another way: if the yobidashi happened to pile up the sand just a few grains higher, we wouldn't even have this discussion.

Edited by Jakusotsu
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That video above, taken from the South side, really looks like the head judge made up his mind early and spent the three minutes getting the others, especially those nearest the incident, to agree.  It takes them over two minutes to decide to look at the mark even though the spot was where Asanoyama landed.

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28 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

Someone at Tachiai said apparently you can only have torinaoshi if there's a dotai (where both rikishi touch simultaneously and it's hard to call) as opposed to it just being sketchy with a single rikishi.  I'm not aware of this rule though.  Any older/wiser folks here know? 

This was my understanding of torinaoshi as well - it's for when two rikishi go "out" at the same time, not for when the technology is inconclusive*. Therefore in this case, they must decide in or out based on the evidence. I don't know if I picked that up from somewhere, or it's just my assumption though.

*If indeed you call that inconclusive.

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Posted (edited)

Heres a juicy little conspiracy.

It's curious from the video above that there is no mark on the sand from Tochinoshins heel....the Shimpan does not raise his hand, nothing.

Asanoyama falls and lies there for a second, no hand raised,

Asanoyama then clumsily drags his hand backward across the outside of the tawara exactly where any heel imprint evidence would be.

As soon as that happens Shimpan seems to notice and instantly puts up his hand as the evidence or rather lack of evidence has been erased by Asanoyama. Awfully convenient.

He knew that he would be easier to make a dodgy call stick with the sand disturbed. If he thought Tochinoshin had stepped out, his hand would have gone straight up.

It is just too convenient.

 

Which weasel shimpan was sitting over there? Need to investigate. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/CvcPHAS  Screenshots of the events of which I speak.

 

Edited by sekihiryu

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44 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

That video above, taken from the South side, really looks like the head judge made up his mind early and spent the three minutes getting the others, especially those nearest the incident, to agree. 

It was actually the West side judge who called for the monoii, and he was the first judge up on the dohyo.  My opinion is that the final decision was based on his belief that he witnessed Tochinoshin's heel touching out first.  There is no way that the head judge was able to get a decent view of anything.

After being traumatised by the whole fiasco, I am compelled to deal with it with a little humour here.  That is to say that Onomuatsu shimpancho puts the "no ii" (no "good") in monoii.

OK, unleash the dogs.

P.S.,, Again to be fair, I will admit that I put the "no ii" in all my jokes.

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Tochinoshin lost? That was the biggest robbery since the Brink's Job. 

 

I can not believe Takayasu won as he seemed to be fading harder than Tochinoshin. But that is good news for Tochinoshin. With Takaysu having his KK in hand already if he faces Tochi on Day 15 Takayasu will be easier to beat. He may not even need that though if Kakuryu is going into his late basho fade now.  I would not be surprised to see Kakauryu and Goeido lose on Day 14. Goeido almost lost to Shodai of all people today. Asanayama may be clinching this on  Day 14.

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That was an absolutely wrong call on Tochinoshin. Everyone including Asanoyama knew whose win it was. Everyone but the shimpan. That being said, bad calls do happen. I really hope this one isn't tragic. Hopefully, Toch will beat Kakuryu tomorrow. And hell, let Goeido beat Asanoyama. We can get an insane scenario with four rikishi plus entering with a shot at the Yusho on senshuraku! 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, code_number3 said:
6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Ichiyamamoto and Akiseyama have already exhausted all of my attention span for today.

Anyone know how long was that match?

Judging by the time-lapse on the mbovo file, the bout lasted three minutes and 13 seconds (worthy of a water break).  It was nice to see Ichiyamamoto prevail!

Edited by Amamaniac

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2 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:
 

Trying to give my opinion from a neutral point of view. In something that close is difficult for people to avoid mixing their feelings with their judgment. The same way in football on a close call for a penalty or an offside, you will have people totally conviced the decision was right or wrong, depending on the team they support, when in reality the referee decision was correct.

1 - This match would always had to have a monoi. The judges did very well calling it to review if the foot was in or out. This has happen several times and i've never seen it being questioned, especially the way it has been today.

2 - The controversial part. It isn't that clear that is foot wasn't actually out. Expecially from this image, which so far seems to be the best one to analyse, it is a 50 / 50. If judges decided one way on a 50 / 50, then they cannot be criticised the way they have been. They had to take a decision and a re-match was never an option as it is not applicable on this scenario.

If this was like the Daiesho - Okinoumi match, which obviously no one in their right mind can say it was a good decision, I would understand some of the comments like saying the chief judge should resign. In this one, sorry, but no. It is just your emotions as a Tochinoshin supporter interfering with your judgment.

 

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I don't know if this is modified at all but even in the video you can't see a mark on the ground until after Asa goes down. So sad for Tochinoshin. 

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The obvious fix: schedule Tochinoshin to face the Juryo visitor on Senshuraku. Heck, book him to face Hattorizakura.

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2 minutes ago, RPedro44 said:

Trying to give my opinion from a neutral point of view. In something that close is difficult for people to avoid mixing their feelings with their judgment. The same way in football on a close call for a penalty or an offside, you will have people totally conviced the decision was right or wrong, depending on the team they support, when in reality the referee decision was correct.

1 - This match would always had to have a monoi. The judges did very well calling it to review if the foot was in or out. This has happen several times and i've never seen it being questioned, especially the way it has been today.

2 - The controversial part. It isn't that clear that is foot wasn't actually out. Expecially from this image, which so far seems to be the best one to analyse, it is a 50 / 50. If judges decided one way on a 50 / 50, then they cannot be criticised the way they have been. They had to take a decision and a re-match was never an option as it is not applicable on this scenario.

If this was like the Daiesho - Okinoumi match, which obviously no one in their right mind can say it was a good decision, I would understand some of the comments like saying the chief judge should resign. In this one, sorry, but no. It is just your emotions as a Tochinoshin supporter interfering with your judgment.

 

If it’s 50-50 and a rematch isn’t an option, then it should be gunbai-dori.

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What a bloody day! I am in utter disbelief. Another reminder that if you try to think of sumo in the same way as other sports, you'll have a bad time.

I hope very desperately that Tochinoshin can get his 10.

As others have said, it's sad that this will inevitably overshadow Asanoyama's yusho, if he claims it.

 

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19 minutes ago, RPedro44 said:

Trying to give my opinion from a neutral point of view. In something that close is difficult for people to avoid mixing their feelings with their judgment. The same way in football on a close call for a penalty or an offside, you will have people totally conviced the decision was right or wrong, depending on the team they support, when in reality the referee decision was correct.

1 - This match would always had to have a monoi. The judges did very well calling it to review if the foot was in or out. This has happen several times and i've never seen it being questioned, especially the way it has been today.

2 - The controversial part. It isn't that clear that is foot wasn't actually out. Expecially from this image, which so far seems to be the best one to analyse, it is a 50 / 50. If judges decided one way on a 50 / 50, then they cannot be criticised the way they have been. They had to take a decision and a re-match was never an option as it is not applicable on this scenario.

If this was like the Daiesho - Okinoumi match, which obviously no one in their right mind can say it was a good decision, I would understand some of the comments like saying the chief judge should resign. In this one, sorry, but no. It is just your emotions as a Tochinoshin supporter interfering with your judgment.

 

Would you still say that based on the picture above showing the lack of a sand mark after Tochinoshin's foot moves but before Asanoyama lands? Because that seems pretty conclusive to me.

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