Basho Talk - Aki Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Harry 67]

2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Shikihide-beya is presumably not a "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style heya, but I really do wonder how he can even participate in practice in any meaningful way.

Does anyone know how he got into sumo in the first place? A sad old-style case of parents just wanting to give him free room and board or what? He is so skinny and it sounds like he injured his neck so he'd rather not compete at all.

As @Rocks said at least Kyokuhikari is enjoying the chanko... 40 years old and still at it! For him I'd ask why is he still in ozumo but I assume he can't do much else at this point. Hattori at least could do something if he finished high school.

[Asashosakari 19,691]

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

Does anyone know how he got into sumo in the first place? A sad old-style case of parents just wanting to give him free room and board or what? He is so skinny and it sounds like he injured his neck so he'd rather not compete at all.

There was some info in the shindeshi thread at the time (click header for post):

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Asashosakari

[WAKATAKE 2,677]

Barring a freak retirement, Kotoshogiku has guaranteed himself another two basho as an Ozeki, which will put him in a three way tie for ninth place once the January banzuke comes out. This is his 30th basho as Ozeki, so he'll get into that top 10 category in January.

[d_golem 213]

9 hours ago, Dwale said:

I can sum this one up succinctly: one of the best days of sumo I've ever seen! Yeah, I've only been watching on the regular for a few years- still. Amazing. And that staredown between Goeido and Harumafuji... I got chills. I was watching with my girlfriend and we were both just like, "Uh-oh, it's about to go down!" XD

 

I've only got very few chances of seeing a bout in its entirety from the pre-bout ritual to the finish, so when I watched that staredown sessions between Ama and Goeido, all I could think about was "Is it always THIS intense??". Really felt like two warriors grappling furiously at each other with their minds!

Edited September 24, 2016 by d_golem

[Morty 1,505]

Re Kise, Tsuna runs, and his brain:

I have long said that Kisenosato's problem is mental and that he will never make Yok unless he fixes that (which he won't, without outside intervention, which is unlikely to happen in the sumo world). But... I think it is more than just his brain. It's also his sumo.

His sumo is extremely one dimensional. Like all rikishi he has favourite kimarite and a particular style that that he favours. But an analysis of those kimarite in the (most excellent) database shows that they all fall into the same zone. He only ever does forward moving sumo - he is so gachinko that he has won less than 5% of all bouts over his entire career with pulling techniques. 65% of his bouts are won with Yorikiri or Oshidashi, and another 11% by Tsukiotoshi or Yoritaoshi. That is three quarters of his bouts won by very similar, forward moving techniques. In total he has used 26 different kimarite over his career. By contrast the top two kimarite of Hak and HF only score 45% of their wins and they have both used 41 and 43 different kimarite respectively, over their careers. They are more flexible in the way they win. Kise is extremely good at what he does, but it is very, very predictable. His opponent knows that if they get him moving backward he won't shift to a pulling attempt or similar, he will just try to resist. Based on this predictability his opponents can always go into bouts against him with a single plan. They don't really need a plan B, because Kise definitely doesn't have one. The question is as to whether his opponents are good enough to exploit that predictability, given that his forward technique is almost flawless. I contend that this is why he has never beaten all the Sanyaku during a basho, because they are invariably good enough to take advantage of his lack of plan B, at least some of the time. 

So I contend that it isn't just his brain, but also his lack of flexibility and ability to alter his game plan mid match, which has stopped him getting to the top level. His famous gachinkoness has meant he has eschewed pulling techniques, to his detriment. He would rather lose than win going backwards. I don't have time to do the analysis, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of Yoks have a wider spread of kimarite that reflect their ability to change their plan mid bout. And I would be willing to bet that the majority of long term Ozeki have a more narrow range of kimarite, showing that they are very good at one type of sumo, but reflecting their lack of flexibility in being able to step outside their comfort zone. 

 

[Benevolance 2,511]

Well, 34% of current yokozuna can win a match by any technique they wish, so Morty is on to something here...

[Dwale 419]

Kisenosato's rigidity is something I've noticed before. However, even granting that this rigidity is a gaping hole in his game, would not that still be an issue of the brain?

[Morty 1,505]

24 minutes ago, Dwale said:

Kisenosato's rigidity is something I've noticed before. However, even granting that this rigidity is a gaping hole in his game, would not that still be an issue of the brain?

Totally - but it is something he has decided upon, rather than an anxiety impediment he can't overcome

[robnplunder 976]

6 hours ago, bettega said:

I almost feel an urge to protect  Hattorizakura... "you! bully sumo guy! get away from the small one!"

I rooted for him in the 1st and 2nd basho.  Now, I think he should quit.   He will not physically or mentally growing into anything.

[rhyen 1,846]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

Re Kise, Tsuna runs, and his brain:

I have long said that Kisenosato's problem is mental and that he will never make Yok unless he fixes that (which he won't, without outside intervention, which is unlikely to happen in the sumo world). But... I think it is more than just his brain. It's also his sumo.

His sumo is extremely one dimensional. Like all rikishi he has favourite kimarite and a particular style that that he favours. But an analysis of those kimarite in the (most excellent) database shows that they all fall into the same zone. He only ever does forward moving sumo - he is so gachinko that he has won less than 5% of all bouts over his entire career with pulling techniques. 65% of his bouts are won with Yorikiri or Oshidashi, and another 11% by Tsukiotoshi or Yoritaoshi. That is three quarters of his bouts won by very similar, forward moving techniques. In total he has used 26 different kimarite over his career. By contrast the top two kimarite of Hak and HF only score 45% of their wins and they have both used 41 and 43 different kimarite respectively, over their careers. They are more flexible in the way they win. Kise is extremely good at what he does, but it is very, very predictable. His opponent knows that if they get him moving backward he won't shift to a pulling attempt or similar, he will just try to resist. Based on this predictability his opponents can always go into bouts against him with a single plan. They don't really need a plan B, because Kise definitely doesn't have one. The question is as to whether his opponents are good enough to exploit that predictability, given that his forward technique is almost flawless. I contend that this is why he has never beaten all the Sanyaku during a basho, because they are invariably good enough to take advantage of his lack of plan B, at least some of the time. 

So I contend that it isn't just his brain, but also his lack of flexibility and ability to alter his game plan mid match, which has stopped him getting to the top level. His famous gachinkoness has meant he has eschewed pulling techniques, to his detriment. He would rather lose than win going backwards. I don't have time to do the analysis, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of Yoks have a wider spread of kimarite that reflect their ability to change their plan mid bout. And I would be willing to bet that the majority of long term Ozeki have a more narrow range of kimarite, showing that they are very good at one type of sumo, but reflecting their lack of flexibility in being able to step outside their comfort zone. 

 

 

This criticism could also be applied to Kotoshogiku, who has already won a Yusho earlier this year. 

[Hakuyobaku 33]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Quite possibly the longest mid-bout standoff I've ever seen:

 

Anyone remember the standoff between Kotomitsuki and .. I don't remember who it was. Should have been Kotonowaka because if his propensity for long bouts, but they were stablemates..

They just stood there for half a minute without contact and another half a minute with heads against each other. I can't remember now who the other rikishi was. But it was years before Kotomotsuki became Ozeki

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Hakuyobaku

[MrGrumpyGills 134]

Nishikigi beat Aoiyama, now that's something I wasn't expected to see :O

[Jyuunomori 226]

Nishikigi is KK! Good for him!

Down in Juryo two guys are impressing me that I didn't cover yesterday.

Aminishiki the Wily Veteran is utterly brilliant. He defeated Osunaarashi today via Watashikomi. Improving to 7-7, I hope from the bottom of my heart that he wins tomorrow. I want to see him back in Makuuchi. Just one last time would do, not ready to see him go.

And because of Daiki and Onosho kept their wins they are still the most likely Juryo Yusho winners, but there is someone right behind them and he is doing AMAZING.

Talking about Kotoeko of course. After a 9-6 record from last basho and 5-2 record from one in Makushita before that: He is doing amazing this basho boastin 10-4 record highest in his career in the highest rank of his career, good job. If by some change Daiki and Onosho both lose and Kotoeko wins we are gonna have 3 way playoff. Gambarize Kotoeko!

Edited September 24, 2016 by Jyuunomori

[MrGrumpyGills 134]

Okinoumi FINALLY getting KK. Phew!

[Jyuunomori 226]

Wait? Another!! SAKATOTTARI!!!

Okinoumi just got some special prizes and Sekiwake spot.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Jyuunomori

[fwuzzle23 66]

I don't think many people would have guessed after that first week that it would take until Day 14 for Okinoumi to get KK.

[d_golem 213]

Goeido's mum?

[Rocks 1,809]

5 minutes ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

Okinoumi FINALLY getting KK. Phew!

Thank God.

[Rocks 1,809]

Day 15 Torikumi up. Goeido -Giku, Nishigiki-Endo.

[Rocks 1,809]

Toupee Tom got pretty excited there.  He actually moved.

[Rocks 1,809]

Endo beats Takayasu. Still alive for yusho.

[fwuzzle23 66]

Endo keeping the yusho race going for another...15 minutes?

[MrGrumpyGills 134]

Dear god. Endo beat Takayasu.

[Jyuunomori 226]

Shodai cushions his drop. Could be 7-8 record.

[Rocks 1,809]

Tamawashi is trying to decide whether to henka Goeido or not.