Chiyozakura 130 Posted September 25, 2014 Definitely making sure that Ichinojo gets the toughest schedule possible from now. For a M10 to face Ozeki, Ozeki, Yokozuna on Days 11, 12, 13 - would that be the toughest schedule an M10 has ever faced? Without checkng the database I remember two similar cases: - Kyushu 1998 Kotonishiki as M#12 faced Yokozuna Wakanohana, Yokozuna Takanohana and Ozeki Takanonami on days 12-14 on route to a 14-1 Yusho. His only loss was to Wakanohana. - Haru 2000 Takatoriki as M#14 faced defending champion and after the basho Shin-Ozeki Musoyama, Yokozuna Musashimaru, Yokozuna Akebono and Sekiwake Miyabiyama on the last four days. He lost to both Yokozuna and took the Yusho with 13-2. The Musashimaru-Akebono match was sacrificed to make room for Takatoriki matches. So his schedule is pretty normal for someone who is a serious Yusho contender. In Kyokutenho's case I fully agree with Asashosakari that until the last day he was not considered to be in serious contention and was just lucky that nobody else had a good basho. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiyozakura 130 Posted September 25, 2014 Having just read Doitsuyama's comment about Ichinojo's Yusho chance vs Hakuho Kotomitsuki's Kyushu basho 1999 came to my mind. He finished 13-2 behind Akebono who went 14-1. On the last five days Kotomitsuki faced Yokozuna Musashimaru, Yokozuna Takanohana, Ozeki Dejima, Ozeki Musoyama and Ozeki Miyabiyama. He lost only to Takanohana but could not catch up with Akebono as he simply did not face him so looking at Ichinojo it would be best to have him face Hakuho should he win today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Propmanoz 1 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) Ichinojo no kachi!!!! Interesting to see whether they insert Ichinojo into a match with Hakuho on Day 14, or if they would be prepared to cancel the Kakuryu-Hakuho matchup from Day 15 (given Chiyozakura's mention of the Yokozuna match-up being cancelled in Haru 2000 to make room for a similar match-up). And with Kakuryu's loss as well, it essentially makes it a Hakuho or Ichinojo Yusho for the taking at this point, unless Ichinojo defeated Hakuho, and Kakuryu defeated both Ichinojo and Hakuho - which would likely setup a three-way playoff for the Yusho). Edited September 25, 2014 by Propmanoz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuroimori 1,634 Posted September 25, 2014 Ichinojo no kachi!!!! with ease! I am getting a bit scared... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hakuyobaku 33 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) This gots to be a best ever top division debut right? Even if he loses the rest.. Well at least the best 12 day for sho. :) Ok so I did do a bit of research. The best division debuts if you count the number of wins was 13 by future double digit yusho winner yokozuna Kitanofuji in 1964 (but all his opponents were maegashira and he never threatened yusho, there was Taiho with 15-0) and Mutsuarashi 1967 (again 2 losses came on days 2 and 3 and was never in yusho race) With 12 wins there are more but within last 50 or so years only Tochinohana (wow) and Hakuho. And they didn't get to face any yokozuna neither: Tochinohana had 2 Ozeki while Hakuho had all maegashira (it was the basho when he spoiled the Hokutoriki yusho) Anyway good company. Edited September 25, 2014 by Hakuyobaku 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiyozakura 130 Posted September 25, 2014 This gots to be a best ever top division debut right? Even if he loses the rest.. Well at least the best 12 day for sho. :) Ok so I did do a bit of research. The best division debuts if you count the number of wins was 13 by future double digit yusho winner yokozuna Kitanofuji in 1964 (but all his opponents were maegashira and he never threatened yusho, there was Taiho with 15-0) and Mutsuarashi 1967 (again 2 losses came on days 2 and 3 and was never in yusho race) With 12 wins there are more but within last 50 or so years only Tochinohana (wow) and Hakuho. And they didn't get to face any yokozuna neither: Tochinohana had 2 Ozeki while Hakuho had all maegashira (it was the basho when he spoiled the Hokutoriki yusho) Anyway good company. You could add Kotomitsuki to that 13 win list as that Kyushu Basho of 2000 was the first time he stepped on the Makuuchi dohyo. He was ranked there for one basho before but had to sit out due to appendicits (if my memory serves me right...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krindel 671 Posted September 25, 2014 I believe if Ichinojo beats Kakuryu tomorrow, he will get to face Hakuho. I seriously doubt there are any fans out there who would prefer to see Kakuryu - Hakuho instead of an Ichinojo - Hakuho yusho decider (with optional playoff), and the Kyokai knows that. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hakuyobaku 33 Posted September 25, 2014 This gots to be a best ever top division debut right? Even if he loses the rest.. Well at least the best 12 day for sho. :) Ok so I did do a bit of research. The best division debuts if you count the number of wins was 13 by future double digit yusho winner yokozuna Kitanofuji in 1964 (but all his opponents were maegashira and he never threatened yusho, there was Taiho with 15-0) and Mutsuarashi 1967 (again 2 losses came on days 2 and 3 and was never in yusho race) With 12 wins there are more but within last 50 or so years only Tochinohana (wow) and Hakuho. And they didn't get to face any yokozuna neither: Tochinohana had 2 Ozeki while Hakuho had all maegashira (it was the basho when he spoiled the Hokutoriki yusho) Anyway good company. You could add Kotomitsuki to that 13 win list as that Kyushu Basho of 2000 was the first time he stepped on the Makuuchi dohyo. He was ranked there for one basho before but had to sit out due to appendicits (if my memory serves me right...) You are right.. I didn't recall that. Kotomitsuki will have had similar schedule to Ichinojo. 1-1 against yokozuna and 3-0 against ozeki. Provided it wasn't the best ever ozeki crop to step on the dohyo - Musoyama, Dejima and Miyabiyama but still impressive. Comparable. Kotomitsuki received all 3 special prizes. Ichinojo will get at least two is my guess but maybe also all three.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted September 25, 2014 Rank-and-file?? This is for me a maegashira who struggles to get into the joi-jin and gets whooped when there. Tochinoshin actually was a joi-jin regular from age 22 to 25, and it wouldn't surprise me if he is even stronger now at age 26 and with a good amount of rest (and looking fully healthy of course).Apart from another odd Komusubi appearance, I don't see Tochinoshin reaching sanyaku.Steak? Of course he might get injured, but yes, steak. I give you one komusubi appearance, but two komusubi or a sekiwake debut, and it's mine. :-) You know, so far he is comparing favorably with the best of marches from low makushita in history, going 32-2 with three yusho so far, still competing with Miyabiyama's record setting 40-4 with four yusho. To follow up on this, Tochinoshin now is 39-2 on his return, and looks more than likely to surpass Miyabiyama's record run to makuuchi (albeit not from hatsu dohyo but still from a very similar starting point). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,837 Posted September 25, 2014 I believe if Ichinojo beats Kakuryu tomorrow, he will get to face Hakuho. I seriously doubt there are any fans out there who would prefer to see Kakuryu - Hakuho instead of an Ichinojo - Hakuho yusho decider (with optional playoff), and the Kyokai knows that.The problem is that Hakuho could be two wins ahead before a Day 15 matchup, rendering it meaningless (except as a teaser for things to come). He could be two wins ahead before Day 14 as well, of course, but at least the yusho wouldn't be decided yet if they did Hakuho-Ichinojo there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,837 Posted September 25, 2014 On another note: Will Ikioi get a shukun-sho? ;-) 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luispereira 383 Posted September 25, 2014 Ichinojo is Godzilla!! :-S Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hakuyobaku 33 Posted September 25, 2014 Maybe they need to put Ichinojo against Tochinoshin on day 14? Why not! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yorikiried by fate 1,989 Posted September 25, 2014 FWIW Shub-Niggurath(to add another level of hysteria) in statistical perspective. http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_wins=11-15&form1_year=1958-2014&form1_m=on&form1_debutd=on http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&year=1958-2014&m=on&debutd1=on&rank2=y-o http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&year=1958-2014&day=12&m=on&wins1=11-12&debutd1=on 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,817 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) Rank-and-file?? This is for me a maegashira who struggles to get into the joi-jin and gets whooped when there. Tochinoshin actually was a joi-jin regular from age 22 to 25, and it wouldn't surprise me if he is even stronger now at age 26 and with a good amount of rest (and looking fully healthy of course).Apart from another odd Komusubi appearance, I don't see Tochinoshin reaching sanyaku. Steak? Of course he might get injured, but yes, steak. I give you one komusubi appearance, but two komusubi or a sekiwake debut, and it's mine. :-) You know, so far he is comparing favorably with the best of marches from low makushita in history, going 32-2 with three yusho so far, still competing with Miyabiyama's record setting 40-4 with four yusho.To follow up on this, Tochinoshin now is 39-2 on his return, and looks more than likely to surpass Miyabiyama's record run to makuuchi (albeit not from hatsu dohyo but still from a very similar starting point).Sure. But I'm still not convinced he will do any better in Makuuchi than he did before. The steak is still in the oven. Edit: Oh, and about Ichinojo, I'd be surprised if they didn't skip the totally meaningless Hakuho-Kotoshogiku matchup on Saturday. Senshuraku should be about Yokozuna only. Edited September 25, 2014 by Jakusotsu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALAKTORN 346 Posted September 25, 2014 I’m totally surprised by Ichinojō. I thought he wouldn’t be able to beat the upper ranks, but he’s destroying everyone. In training Kakuryū and Hakuhō apparently demolished him, so we’ll see how tomorrow goes… Endō is a shadow of his former self. The hype must really kill rikishi. Hoping Kyokutenhō will at least get kachikoshi, just one more. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shitamachi 21 Posted September 25, 2014 In non-Ichinojo news, it looks like kachiage is back in play for Osunaarashi. 7-loss desperation move? Clearly he hasn't been feeling 100% this basho. And while he picked up the win, it wasn't pretty. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morty 1,480 Posted September 25, 2014 Goeido is 6-6 and facing Hakuho tomorrow - he's in a bit of trouble on his debut as Ozeki - not particularly convincing 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pandaazuma 1,310 Posted September 25, 2014 On another note: Will Ikioi get a shukun-sho? ;-) Ha...I wonder if that has ever happened. Incidentally, and off-topic, but Asashosakari...always wanted to ask why you have Kitazakura as your avatar. He's simply your fave lad? I met him once in the Kokugikan...I was sat there upstairs with the piece of paper with my games picks on and he came over and asked me what I was writing! I told him about the games and he seemed really interested...seemed a generally all-round interesting guy. Wonder if he is one of the new players I am seeing this basho...like Reijinguoshan etc. ;) 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shikona 139 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) "By that logic, everyone who's 6-4 after 10 days is "in contention" because it's almost always possible that the yusho score could go as low as 11-4. You appear to overlook that there's an opportunity cost involved in any challenge-type bout - to completely prevent the (very rare) situations like Kyokutenho's yusho, you have to inflict significant damage to the integrity of almost all other yusho races. Again, there just aren't enough bouts to go around in 15 days to have both the "regular" high-ranker bouts and the challenge bouts for every conceivable candidate from the lower ranks. To criticize the schedule-making from hindsight with the knowledge that one particular rikishi slipped through the net is, quite frankly, unfair. There is no perfect solution." (Sorry, I'm not sure how to do a partial quote in the system.) My point was that the definition of "out of contention" precludes the chance that you can win; obviously Kyokutenho could win. I realize that any significant number of days before the end of the basho, there could be many contenders--but I think the people making the pairings in Natsu 2012 dismissed one from consideration too early. Are you convinced that the 4-win M11 they selected (on Day 11) to be Kyokutenho's Day 13 opponent was the only one left after all the other yusho contenders were addressed? That is all that I am questioning. Edited September 25, 2014 by Shikona Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shikona 139 Posted September 25, 2014 While Kisenosato's mind often seems to go to the wrong address, Goeido is a pretty solid citizen, so I found Ichinojo's win today quite impressive. Kakuryu not at his best this basho by a long shot, seriously wonder if he can prevent giving up the kinboshi to a rookie. With Hakuho on his way to another zensho, he and Ichinojo both deserve a shot at each other. The pairing makers have done very well so far, so I'm hopeful we will see that match if necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 157 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) I think we should wait until after Day 13 to start worrying about Hak/Ichi. If Ichi loses to Kak tomorrow, there's nothing really to worry about. I suppose Hak could lose on both Day 14 and Day 15, but I see that as being very unlikely at this point. If Ichinojo beat Kak, I'd go Ichi/Hak on Day 14 then go Hak/Kak on Day 15. I think they really should have booked Hak vs Koto for safety tomorrow instead of Hak/Goeido. I think that's the more important match to squeeze in and I don't think Goeido would be too upset at not having to risk his 7th loss against Hakuho. I also think they should have thrown an Ozeki at Ichi a day earlier to see what would've happened. I'm also curious to see where Okinoumi ends up. He'd need some crazy things to happen to somehow win this, but it can happen. He might be able to be overlooked until the last day due to the various matchup issues I mentioned above, and theoretically could slip in there. I'd kind of be mad if I was Ichi in a way as Ichi had to fight Ozeki's and Yok's, while Oki can slip by to Day 14 without fighting either. Not really fair. Edited September 25, 2014 by rzombie1988 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,871 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) If Ichinojo beat Kak, I'd go Ichi/Hak on Day 14 then go Hak/Kak on Day 15.The day 14 schedule will be announced before the Ichi/Kaku match takes place. Since they are already defying tradition, they could go with Haku/Kaku on day 14 and leave day 15 open for an Ichi/Haku matchup, but I would be amazed if they did it. Edited September 25, 2014 by Asojima 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shumitto 418 Posted September 25, 2014 Pairing genki'sh Aoiyama with Sadanofuji was rather strange; they usually do high-ranked-high-score rikishi with low-ranked-low-score in Juryo. I am happy about Amuru, the 8th win didn't actually seal it but brought a promotion to Makuuchi much closer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,837 Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) My point was that the definition of "out of contention" precludes the chance that you can win; obviously Kyokutenho could win. I realize that any significant number of days before the end of the basho, there could be many contenders--but I think the people making the pairings in Natsu 2012 dismissed one from consideration too early. Are you convinced that the 4-win M11 they selected (on Day 11) to be Kyokutenho's Day 13 opponent was the only one left after all the other yusho contenders were addressed? That is all that I am questioning. This was the Arasoi after Day 11: 10 wins - O2e Kisenosato 8 wins - O1w Baruto, O2w Kotoshogiku, M4e Tochiozan, M6w Aoiyama, M7w Kyokutenho, M11e Shotenro, M15w Tamawashi, M16e Takarafuji These were the Day 13 matchups made based on that situation: O2e Kisenosato - Ye Hakuho (7-4) O1w Baruto - O1e Harumafuji (6-5) O2w Kotoshogiku - Sw Goeido (6-5) M4e Tochiozan - Kw Aminishiki (6-5) M6w Aoiyama - M16e Takarafuji M7w Kyokutenho - M11w Sadanofuji (5-6) M11e Shotenro - M5w Okinoumi (7-4) M15w Tamawashi - M8e Tochinoshin (6-5) Note: Kyokutenho had already faced Tochiozan, Aoiyama, Tamawashi and Takarafuji. Were there better opponents available than Sadanofuji? Of course, there always are if you're only trying to address the situation of a single rikishi instead of rebuilding the whole schedule. But it's hardly surprising that they didn't go out of their way to challenge Kyokutenho, what with an ozeki 2 wins ahead with just 4 days to go. Put the blame where it belongs, with Kisenosato's epic failure to not at least reach a playoff from that position. Edited September 25, 2014 by Asashosakari 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites