Natsu 2025 discussion (results)

[Wakawakawaka 186]

8 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

The hope I have for Takeru at this point is that, even though part of his struggles this time seemed due to him getting thrown off his game because nothing was working, he also tried tactics I wouldn't have expected. If he was actually trying things rather than constantly falling into sub-optimal situations with no idea of what to do about it, we should see some improvement against the top guys. It might just be enough to be another Abi-style in and out of the lower san'yaku type career, but that would still be improvement.

Something that I've been thinking about not just Takerufuji, but all the 'Ozeki by the end of the year' contenders. Here's what proven top guys look like when they find themselves out of the joi.

Terunofuji
2020.07    M17e        13-2 Y

Abi
2021.11    M15w        12-3 J
2022.01    M6w        12-3 J    
2022.11       M9w        12-3 Y

Asanoyama
2023.05    M14e        12-3 J

Wakatakakage
2024.07    M14e        11-4         
2024.09    M7e        12-3 J   

 

[Vancouver BC Sumo Fan 14]

On 24/05/2025 at 23:46, Tigerboy1966 said:

We also have Sadanoumi winning a kanto-sho at 38, and Hidenoumi winning promotion to maku'uchi at 35.

I found out earlier today in a Chris Sumo video that Sadanoumi was 38! I had no idea. Looks younger for sure.

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

16 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

And I've already mentally filed Takerufuji's yusho along with Tokushoryu's until further notice.

Ouch. 

Unfortunately, I also have to officially abandon Takerufuji's bandwagon. The magic is gone. 

[Wakawakawaka 186]

40 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Ouch. 

Unfortunately, I also have to officially abandon Takerufuji's bandwagon. The magic is gone. 

That's ok, at least we only have 9 more basho before Kusano becomes Yokozuna.

[Kaninoyama 1,866]

4 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

I remember that. The general sentiment here was of people being dismissive towards 'cranky old man' Isegahama.

Of all his deshi, when doing NHK commentary he was always relentless in his criticism of Atamifuji, while far less so his other disciples. 

[Jakusotsu 6,188]

Regarding Atamifuji: I've always seen him as the new Mitoizumi, so we'll see one freak yusho in two years time along with an increasing use of salt.

[I am the Yokozuna 204]

17 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

He did not perform well during the basho" isn't contrary: it's denial.

jungyo and soken is what I meant. thanks for pointing it out. My point here is that it is always said that sumo is not only about results during a basho but also about how a sumotori behaves during jungyo and during daily training and if he limited his efforts just to perform better during the basho maybe this won't be liked by the JSA.  

 

17 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Nonsense. Takanohana never had Onosato's record of two consecutive yusho before being promoted.

i never said that. I pointed that Takanohana had the record to be promoted in 1993: a Yusho and Doten and was denied the promotion. When Asashoryu was to be promoted his hinkaku qualities were discussed so much and there was some doubts he won't be promoted because he lacked such. 

My point is that and what I pondered a lot during the basho is why no one is attacking Onosato on the belt and that Hoshoryu won't be inferior in their rivalry as some posters pointed out. 

 

Anyhow, as this is rightfully settled, any noise about Wakatakakage being on an ozeki run?

[Tigerboy1966 1,539]

31 minutes ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

Anyhow, as this is rightfully settled, any noise about Wakatakakage being on an ozeki run?

We are going to have three rock solid sekiwake and two very promising komusubi in July. And the banzuke with only one ozeki is displeasingly asymmetrical. I would be very surprised if we did not see at least one ozeki promotion before the end of 2025.

[Octofuji 387]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Regarding Atamifuji: I've always seen him as the new Mitoizumi, so we'll see one freak yusho in two years time along with an increasing use of salt.

I was surprised to look back and see that even in his play-off basho he only beat one san'yaku wrestler (a 6-9 Tobizaru) and lost 3 of his final 4 regulation bouts, plus the playoff.

 Since then I've thought of him as an underachiever, but it's perhaps fairer to think of him (so far) as a brief overachiever.

[Tsurukame 10]

(about Takerufuji's "skinny little ankles", the forum won't let me quote the post...) When my husband first saw Takerufuji, he commented that he seemed to have "runner's legs" - something about the shape and where the muscle sits, which might also make it harder to achieve a bulky, muscular lower leg. His mother was also a sprinter, so maybe he inherited that part of his build. There's probably not that much he can do about it, but I agree it's a weak point. I'm still holding out hope that he's trying to adapt to a new environment where speed and upper body strength are not enough, and that he'll figure out what works for him eventually. I'm not seeing him as a yokozuna, but I hope he'll be a makuuchi mainstay, if only for that black-on-black kesho-mawashi... but that's probably my inner goth speaking.

[RabidJohn 1,943]

4 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

We are going to have three rock solid sekiwake and two very promising komusubi in July. And the banzuke with only one ozeki is displeasingly asymmetrical. I would be very surprised if we did not see at least one ozeki promotion before the end of 2025.

Hmm, Kirishima on his quest to regain his rank, Daieisho on his endless ozeki run, and Wakatakakage having potentially just started one. I had to check the promotion discussion thread to get a handle on who's up for komusubi, though. Oshoma definitely, and either Aonishiki or Onokatsu, if I'm reading things right. Wow, that was not a good basho to be a high maegashira!

So, the two shin-komusubi will be traditionally served up to the yokozuna on the first two days in July, no? 

[Sumo Spiffy 621]

3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Hmm, Kirishima on his quest to regain his rank, Daieisho on his endless ozeki run, and Wakatakakage having potentially just started one. I had to check the promotion discussion thread to get a handle on who's up for komusubi, though. Oshoma definitely, and either Aonishiki or Onokatsu, if I'm reading things right. Wow, that was not a good basho to be a high maegashira!

So, the two shin-komusubi will be traditionally served up to the yokozuna on the first two days in July, no? 

I almost said no, but then I remembered there will be two of them. So, yeah. Aonishiki v. Hoshoryu on day 1, Oshoma v. Onosato on day 2.

3 hours ago, Tsurukame said:

(about Takerufuji's "skinny little ankles", the forum won't let me quote the post...) When my husband first saw Takerufuji, he commented that he seemed to have "runner's legs" - something about the shape and where the muscle sits, which might also make it harder to achieve a bulky, muscular lower leg. His mother was also a sprinter, so maybe he inherited that part of his build. There's probably not that much he can do about it, but I agree it's a weak point. I'm still holding out hope that he's trying to adapt to a new environment where speed and upper body strength are not enough, and that he'll figure out what works for him eventually. I'm not seeing him as a yokozuna, but I hope he'll be a makuuchi mainstay, if only for that black-on-black kesho-mawashi... but that's probably my inner goth speaking.

I'd be down to see more goth wrestlers. In any case, a skinny ankle can still be a strong one, but it'll take real, targeted effort. Regular sumo exercise probably won't be enough in his case. Fortunately, Isegahama has the resources to have someone who can point this out and help; whether or not that happens, we'll see.

7 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

We are going to have three rock solid sekiwake and two very promising komusubi in July. And the banzuke with only one ozeki is displeasingly asymmetrical. I would be very surprised if we did not see at least one ozeki promotion before the end of 2025.

Uh... obviously Aonishiki is promising, even though he may not be ready for the jump in level of competition yet (since K1w has arguably the hardest schedule in sumo). But Oshoma? He got his cheeks double-clapped at M4w, and looked like he ran off his 10-5 this time by going above and beyond in his level of effort near the end with a potential (and, against Abi, definite) san'yaku spot on the line. If he's going to have even a whisper of a chance of holding on to komusubi, what he was willing to do in that Abi fight is what he'll need to do all fifteen days in July. He might surprise, but 6-9 would be a surprise.

13 hours ago, Wakawakawaka said:

Something that I've been thinking about not just Takerufuji, but all the 'Ozeki by the end of the year' contenders. Here's what proven top guys look like when they find themselves out of the joi.

The biggest difference between Takerufuji and the rikishi you mentioned is, obviously, experience, but I think that messes up the comparison. Those guys generally did fine against the san'yaku they faced as they came back up (which, IMO, is more relevant than their overall records), but for them, the san'yaku were familiar opponents. Takeru went 4-2 against san'yaku-level opposition on his title run; he's 3-17 against them since. The takeaway is that he couldn't have achieved the first result without the physical tools to stand up to the best guys, but their experience has allowed them to figure out how to take it to him. His injuries could still be affecting him as well. So, now it's on him to find new ways to fight with the body he has (whether it's as capable as it was a year ago). That's the path for anyone who winds up as a top wrestler. 

15 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

I think it's far more this than being arrogant. If you listen to him talk there's not an arrogant bone in his body. I think he's just a relatively uncoordinated, bumbling kid blessed with an elite sumo body. He's doing is best but just isn't a natural by any means other than by his size. 

And while he's still only what, 21 or 22? and has plenty of time to improve, I agree that his limitations are apparent and I would not have him high up on the next-Ozeki list. Or even on that list at all. 

Except his body is already starting to betray him. Given some of the other comments, maybe he was dismissive of Isegahama but will be more willing to listen once someone else (I assume Terunofuji) takes over. It might be too late for him to maximize his talent by that point, though.

Edited May 27 by Sumo Spiffy

[Wakawakawaka 186]

29 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

The biggest difference between Takerufuji and the rikishi you mentioned is, obviously, experience, but I think that messes up the comparison. Those guys generally did fine against the san'yaku they faced as they came back up (which, IMO, is more relevant than their overall records), but for them, the san'yaku were familiar opponents. Takeru went 4-2 against san'yaku-level opposition on his title run; he's 3-17 against them since. The takeaway is that he couldn't have achieved the first result without the physical tools to stand up to the best guys, but their experience has allowed them to figure out how to take it to him. His injuries could still be affecting him as well. So, now it's on him to find new ways to fight with the body he has (whether it's as capable as it was a year ago). That's the path for anyone who winds up as a top wrestler.

I think Takerufuji, like Onosato, relies much more on athleticism than technique. Where the two trajectories diverged is that Takerufuji got injured, and Onosato learned how to sumo.

Speaking of injuries, is there any update on Ichiyamamoto? Looked like a broke a finger or hand on day 15?

Edited May 27 by Wakawakawaka

[lackmaker 446]

8 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

We are going to have three rock solid sekiwake and two very promising komusubi in July. And the banzuke with only one ozeki is displeasingly asymmetrical. I would be very surprised if we did not see at least one ozeki promotion before the end of 2025.

And who do you see making that ozeki promotion?

[Reonito 1,613]

9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Regarding Atamifuji: I've always seen him as the new Mitoizumi, so we'll see one freak yusho in two years time along with an increasing use of salt.

If you click on that link for Atami, you can see why he generated such high expectations.

[BuBa 77]

Onosato has managed to become a Yokozuna by doing all kind of odd moves. Almost like a ‘drunken master’ of old martial art movies :). Now, I don’t know if the learning a proper wrestling/sumo techniques will actually be beneficial to him, because that will make him more ‘readable’. 

[Koorifuu 1,079]

13 hours ago, Vancouver BC Sumo Fan said:

I found out earlier today in a Chris Sumo video that Sadanoumi was 38! I had no idea. Looks younger for sure.

I'm old enough of a follower to remember when Sadanoumi and Sadanofuji came through to makuuchi* relatively at the same time, and Sadanoumi was the first to drop back to juryo*, much to people's surprise - as he was the much higher rated of the 'Sadano' duo.

Well, the tides have certainly turned there!

 

EDIT: Flawed memories. It was actually their juryo debut, with Sadanofuji staying a sekitori regular incl. makuuchi basho for a while, whilst Sadanoumi fell down and toiled in makushita for a while longer.

Edited May 27 by Koorifuu

[Benihana 1,948]

If i were Takerufuji, i'd get me a pair of these, just to shut some of you up.

https://maleplasticsurgeryla.com/body-implants-for-men/calf-implants/

[Koorifuu 1,079]

On 26/05/2025 at 13:35, Leoben said:

Terunofuji's comments practically make me dislike him. Imagine having all the physical tools and the coaching and just being like "nah I'm good".

Assuming he's uninterested is unfair to Atamifuji. He might just not be the sharpest tool in the shed, untalented in regards to understanding body movement, or someone whose brain works at a different wavelength.

(Yeah, speaking from personal experience. Lord knows how rough my PTs / instructors / coaches have had it with me, and I sure tried!)

Edited May 28 by Koorifuu

[Leoben 159]

53 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

(Yeah, speaking from personal experience. Lord knows how rough my PTs / instructors / coaches have had with me, and I sure tried!)

I get it, that was uncharitable of me. Talent, skill, motivation, ability to learn... all of these exist in a continuum and all are interconnected with each other, they're not binaries and they can't be isolated. People are differently abled and I shouldn't be making assumptions that a particular athlete is lazy or unwilling when it could be as you said.

Edited May 28 by Leoben
grammar

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

4 hours ago, Benihana said:

If i were Takerufuji, i'd get me a pair of these, just to shut some of you up.

https://maleplasticsurgeryla.com/body-implants-for-men/calf-implants/

Would they also improve his record against sanyaku?

[Yamanashi 3,988]

4 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Would they also improve his record against sanyaku?

If only Aminishiki had procured a new dark head of hair before retirement, we'd have at least one data point.

[maglor 125]

On 27/05/2025 at 19:37, Sumo Spiffy said:

I almost said no, but then I remembered there will be two of them. So, yeah. Aonishiki v. Hoshoryu on day 1, Oshoma v. Onosato on day 2.

I'd be down to see more goth wrestlers. In any case, a skinny ankle can still be a strong one, but it'll take real, targeted effort. Regular sumo exercise probably won't be enough in his case. Fortunately, Isegahama has the resources to have someone who can point this out and help; whether or not that happens, we'll see.

Uh... obviously Aonishiki is promising, even though he may not be ready for the jump in level of competition yet (since K1w has arguably the hardest schedule in sumo). But Oshoma? He got his cheeks double-clapped at M4w, and looked like he ran off his 10-5 this time by going above and beyond in his level of effort near the end with a potential (and, against Abi, definite) san'yaku spot on the line. If he's going to have even a whisper of a chance of holding on to komusubi, what he was willing to do in that Abi fight is what he'll need to do all fifteen days in July. He might surprise, but 6-9 would be a surprise.

The biggest difference between Takerufuji and the rikishi you mentioned is, obviously, experience, but I think that messes up the comparison. Those guys generally did fine against the san'yaku they faced as they came back up (which, IMO, is more relevant than their overall records), but for them, the san'yaku were familiar opponents. Takeru went 4-2 against san'yaku-level opposition on his title run; he's 3-17 against them since. The takeaway is that he couldn't have achieved the first result without the physical tools to stand up to the best guys, but their experience has allowed them to figure out how to take it to him. His injuries could still be affecting him as well. So, now it's on him to find new ways to fight with the body he has (whether it's as capable as it was a year ago). That's the path for anyone who winds up as a top wrestler. 

Except his body is already starting to betray him. Given some of the other comments, maybe he was dismissive of Isegahama but will be more willing to listen once someone else (I assume Terunofuji) takes over. It might be too late for him to maximize his talent by that point, though.

Personally my takeaway is that he went 4-2 against sanyaku-level opposition, that's cool I guess.

Nishikigi once had an 18-1 run while in the joi! Sometimes guys get on runs and pick up a few wins, it just means very little to me.

The injury of course does not help matters, but at the end of the day he's 26 and has never gotten a KK in the joi. I think his chances of being a top rikishi are quite low.