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Hatsu 2020 Basho Discussion (SPOILERS)

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5 minutes ago, Houmanumi said:

Yeah that's what I was wondering. Based on recent results/banzukes (I've only been regularly watching tournaments since July 2018) I thought I'd noticed actual losses being rated higher than absences. I could absolutely be wrong. 

It’s definitely happened in the past couple of years with Hakuho, Kakuryu and Kisenosato (possibly also Harumafuji) but I’d need to look into it. I remember this being discussed here for sure. Probably happened with Ozeki a whole bunch of times too for that matter.

Edited by Eikokurai

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1 minute ago, Houmanumi said:

Yeah that's what I was wondering. Based on recent results/banzukes (I've only been regularly watching tournaments since July 2018) I thought I'd noticed actual losses being rated higher than absences. I could absolutely be wrong. 

There was the case in Kyushu 2018 where Kisenosato having zero wins before pulling out was ranked ahead of Hakuho and Kakuryu who sat out the entire basho. I am genuinely curious whether same number of wins but more appearances will be considered better this time.

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4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Asanoyama's 10-5 (at M2) in Aki was a five-way tie for third in a honbasho with both Y's and an O out of action

If we wait for a basho with a fully fit roster of Y & O competing all 15 days we are going to be waiting for a very long time.

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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

If we wait for a basho with a fully fit roster of Y & O competing all 15 days we are going to be waiting for a very long time.

Exactly. Besides, I don't see the kyokai starting to prioritize "flavour of the month" rikishi over the established ozeki and yokozuna. They are far too traditional for that. Plus it carries its own problems, for example a year ago Tamawashi won the yusho. Should that have made wins against him more important, even though he lost ten in the next basho? 

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7 hours ago, Kuroyama said:

Are we so sure that "At least 2 ozeki at all times" is in fact a hard-and-fast rule?

It's a banzuke-technical rule of old. In Edo times they had the option to have a PR kanban-ozeki, e.g. for only one event, just some big dude. The lists of the occasions with 1 or no ozeki on the banzuke: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/大関#一人大関

Maedayama in such a time was promoted from komusubi directly to ozeki (there were plenty of yokozuna though). WikiP gives 2 cases where none of the yokozuna was put on the banzuke as yokozeki like usually this

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- http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=195501#M - Kagamisato is haridashi yokozuna

- http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=195509#M - 2 haridashi yokozuna

Edited by Akinomaki
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Spirited win by a heated Terutsuyoshi against Aoiyama after the latter gave him an unnecessary shove following an initial matta. 

Edited by Kaninoyama
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4 minutes ago, dingo said:

Exactly. Besides, I don't see the kyokai starting to prioritize "flavour of the month" rikishi over the established ozeki and yokozuna. They are far too traditional for that. Plus it carries its own problems, for example a year ago Tamawashi won the yusho. Should that have made wins against him more important, even though he lost ten in the next basho? 

But Tamawashi wasn't a Yokozuna or Ozeki.  And he wasn't up for Ozeki after a 5-10 at Sekiwake.

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The wheels seem to have come off Endo’s basho. Three consecutive losses leaves him at 6-4. 

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6 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

The wheels seem to have come off Endo’s basho. Three consecutive losses leaves him at 6-4. 

He's like yesterday's chili: hot and cold.

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Some crazy stuff. I knew Shodai had good skills but I didn't realize he was that strong. That was serious power move. If he makes me eat my words by taking this yusho, I'll take them gladly. Could it be he's turned over a new leaf?

Also, could not believe Tochinoshin pulled that off. Asanoyama seems distracted. And did anyone expect to see Mitakeumi beat Endo with a swing-down of all things? This basho is Looney Tunes off the wall. 

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Goeido is now where Takayasu was a couple of days ago. Last chance for him. He has to be perfect for five more days. I’m not feeling it.

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3 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Goeido is now where Takayasu was a couple of days ago. Last chance for him. He has to be perfect for five more days. I’m not feeling it.

He's actually a basho behind where Takayasu is. He'll still have a chance to get his 10 wins and regain his Ozeki rank next basho, where as Takayasu failed in his attempt and is now essentially starting again from scratch. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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Just now, Kaninoyama said:

He's actually a basho behind where Takayasu is. He'll still have a chance to get his 10 and regain his Ozeki rank next basho, where as Takayasu failed in his attempt and is now essentially starting again from scratch. 

I mean in the sense that he can’t afford to lose any more bouts in this tournament.

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8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

One point to consider, which I’ve been wondering for a while, is whether the kyokai starts to reassess the weight of beating Y/Os at a time of such obvious transition. Is there really much value in winning against guys who are old and injured all the time? Sure, they’re Yokozuna and Ozeki in name, but none are really performing at that level right now. Perhaps the Kyokai will consider that the strongest rikishi outside of the aging Y/Os is now the actual strongest rikishi on the banzuke. Once you disregard the likes of Goeido, Kakuryu and Takayasu (maybe even Hakuho at this point) whoever is able to put up the required numbers against the rikishi who are left could be said to be performing to the necessary level. After all, an Ozeki is simply someone who performs better than their contemporaries, not better than all rikishi to have ever fought. The Kyokai may make allowance for some overlap between eras, so “contemporaries” really means “of the same generation”. Asanoyama’s results against the guys around him who are nearer his age might weigh more than a win against a crippled Takayasu or a fading Goeido, regardless of rank.

I suppose you will get your answer when and if they hand out a Shukunsho Outstanding Performance Prize in this tournament.  Endo has an edge over Myogiryu if they decide to hand out one Shukunsho,  Frankly, I would be surprised if they don't award one.  But then again, neither Endo nor Myogiryu have their prerequisite KK majority wins yet.  But Endo is more likely than Myogiryu to get his...

Edited by Amamaniac

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12 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

I suppose you will get your answer when and if they hand out a Shukunsho Outstanding Performance Prize in this tournament.  Endo has an edge over Myogiryu if they decide to hand out one Shukunsho,  Frankly, I would be surprised if they don't award one.  But then again, neither Endo not Myogiryu have their prerequisite KK majority wins yet.  But Endo is more likely than Myogiryu to get his...

Maybe, except the prizes aren’t awarded by the banzuke committee. I’m not sure what sort of overlap or influence there is between the panel that picks the winners and the banzuke group.

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33 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Maybe, except the prizes aren’t awarded by the banzuke committee. I’m not sure what sort of overlap or influence there is between the panel that picks the winners and the banzuke group.

The shimpan department head+deputy heads are members of the sansho selection committee - to vote among many others

Edited by Akinomaki

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2 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

Spirited win by a heated Terutsuyoshi against Aoiyama after the latter gave him an unnecessary shove following an initial matta. 

Was it just the shove? It really seemed like there was bad blood between the two.

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7 minutes ago, Houmanumi said:

Was it just the shove? It really seemed like there was bad blood between the two.

It seems to be. In the post-match interview with the reporter, he said that the shove got his blood boiling. Whether there's anything else between the two I don't know.

Edited by Kaninoyama
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I think Aoiyama learned the Takagenji lesson of getting under Terutsuyoshi's skin before the bout

 

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That right there is some incredible technique. I'm coming to like Terutsuyoshi more and more the more I see and learn about him. That's a lot of more on one sentence, I know.

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Kagayaki looked exactly like he was working on the teppo pole against Kotoeko - step, thrust, step, thrust, nice and tight, nice and methodical. Perfect.

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Tokushoryu against Aoiyama tomorrow. I thought they might try Kagayaki or  Yutakayama (who arguably would be a much greater challenge at this point) before they put him against an M8. But I wouldn't be surprised if he gets elevated as high as to face M4 Shodai if they are both still in the lead with a day or two to go.

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1 hour ago, yohcun said:

I think Aoiyama learned the Takagenji lesson of getting under Terutsuyoshi's skin before the bout

[vid]

I feel like it takes a lot of guts to even attempt this. I've seen it go wrong quite a few times.

When you start doing judo, one of the first things you learn is that throwing someone who doesn't want to be thrown is a lot harder than it looks :-)

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3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Maybe, except the prizes aren’t awarded by the banzuke committee. I’m not sure what sort of overlap or influence there is between the panel that picks the winners and the banzuke group.

You might find this of interest:

 

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Goeido is not even wrestling that badly, but seems like his opposition has leveled up so he can't win as easily anymore. However knowing Goeido nothing can be excluded -- he might be switched on next basho and easily get his 10 wins. 

Enho again shows he's one of the smartest rikishi in makuuchi. That initial slap on Takakeisho's hands was genius. And he gave a tougher bout to Takakeisho than some other joi this basho. However Takakeisho is also smart enough to be careful with Enho so the result was pretty predictable. 

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