Basho Talk - Nagoya Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[egparis18 622]

3 matta in the Ichinojo Yoshikaze bout? I couldn't see why.

Did I miss something or am I right in thinking the gyoji was nitpicking?

Very sorry for Yoshikaze.

Ichinojo mattaed his way to victory, apparently hitting against Yoshikaze's eye socket in the matta overture.

I can only repeat: in Ozumo timing does matta!

Ichinojo looked set for a good fight. It still seems to me that he was just starting fast and the gyoji was being difficult and couldn't we also say that Yoshikaze's eye socket hit Ichinojo rather than the other way round?

[egparis18 622]

Hakuho was so distracted because of Kisenosato's slipup that he himself got owned. Only if the kimarite had been Kubinage instead.

Excitement ensues! Ichinojo is in the lead. xD

But yeah beating two Ozeki, a Sekiwake and Grand Yokozuna Hakuho. 8 wins and Outstanding Performance price is in Takarafuji's pocket. I have no doubts of this.

He must be getting fed up of being interviewed.

[rhyen 1,858]

No, Aminishiki has been feeding him his lines before every interview via the Tsukebitos.

Anyway, he has finished his Yokozuna & Ozeki rotation (with Kakuryu going kyujo). Only thing left is the KK interview. Hope he gets it by day 10.

Edited July 14, 2016 by rhyen

[Atenzan 1,084]

So, all Ys and Os already behind him, and he is in Ozeki run territory. I'm rooting for Takarafuji big time.

Also, Ichinojou is the sole leader. Never expected I'd be saying that. I'll just shut up and let him do him, and let's revisit on day 8-9.

[rhyen 1,858]

So, all Ys and Os already behind him, and he is in Ozeki run territory. I'm rooting for Takarafuji big time.

Also, Ichinojou is the sole leader. Never expected I'd be saying that. I'll just shut up and let him do him, and let's revisit on day 8-9.

Erm...he is a Maegashira 2. Ozeki run should be in the Sanyaku, right?

[Atenzan 1,084]

So, all Ys and Os already behind him, and he is in Ozeki run territory. I'm rooting for Takarafuji big time.

Also, Ichinojou is the sole leader. Never expected I'd be saying that. I'll just shut up and let him do him, and let's revisit on day 8-9.

Erm...he is a Maegashira 2. Ozeki run should be in the Sanyaku, right?

No- you generally need to face full san'yaku schedules, though. Terunofuji started his Ozeki run from M2e . A helpful indicator for "ozeki run territory" is in what I call the "true jo'i"- the top 16 active rikishi. This time around the bracket goes down to M3w.

[hamcornheinz 839]

Can someone explain the matta's in the Ichinojo-Yoshikaze bout? The second one seemed perfectly all right to me.

[hamcornheinz 839]

These neck jokes are why Kinta is the absolute best.

[Washuyama 662]

With the banzuke now completely looking like something from Bizzaro World (4 Yoks, 1 Oz), is there something in the NSK handbook that would serve to correct the balance? I'm sure this has happened before, but I don't remember if there were any special steps taken at the time.

Y2w serves as yokozuna-ozeki on the banzuke to cover for the lack of a proper West Ozeki, presumably.

There was at least one basho without any Ozeki, http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=198109#M

One of the Yoks listed as HD

It only lasted one basho, though as the promoted Kotokaze the very next basho (probably a bit prematurely based on records)

Edited July 14, 2016 by Washuyama

[Gurowake 4,149]

So, all Ys and Os already behind him, and he is in Ozeki run territory. I'm rooting for Takarafuji big time.

Also, Ichinojou is the sole leader. Never expected I'd be saying that. I'll just shut up and let him do him, and let's revisit on day 8-9.

Erm...he is a Maegashira 2. Ozeki run should be in the Sanyaku, right?

They generally will discount runs starting from the maegashira ranks slightly. The fact is that you *can* be on an Ozeki run as long as you've fought all the YokOzeki that you could have, but you'll probably have to win more total matches starting from a lower rank. In the end, it probably matters more about which matches you win and whether you appear to be dominating everyone else below the Ozeki rank than total win count if it gets close. Beating Hakuho certainly is a major help; Goeido's 3 wins against Hakuho in his Ozeki run probably contributed to him being promoted despite not quite having 33. Additionally, his win over Kotoshogiku who was in the yusho race on senshuraku was a very apt way of sealing the promotion.

He still has a long ways to go though. I don't rate him even close to being one of the top rikishi among the joi regulars, and the main reason he's stayed there so long is that he doesn't have to face Harumafuji and Terunofuji.

[Dwale 419]

When Kisenosato lost, I thought, "Oh, no!"

When Hakuho lost, I thought, "Oh, YES!"

Congratulations to Takarafuji on his kinboshi, as well as for making things interesting.

Kitaharima hit the ground so hard I felt it.

Shouhouzan in there using his head. I like Terunofuji more, but I like Shouhouzan, and smart sumo gets a thumbs up from me no matter who it is.

And there's Takayasu, looking great at a difficult rank. Yeah, he got a walkover win, but still.

Not sure what Kotoyuki thinks he's doing. Get it together, man.

I think Mitakeumi is demoralized at this point. Who wouldn't be? But hopefully he can rally and pick up some wins so that he doesn't drop too far.

And Shodai, perhaps the least conspicuous elephant in the room... His fellow sekitori had better not underestimate him, because he is improving quickly.

[Jyuunomori 238]

I am afraid when I think what kind of monster Shodai will be when he matures. Not in age but in skill I mean. He only has 14 basho behind him and three of them are makuuchi bashos. He raised the ranks so quickly and now his skills can improve further when he fights against the best. He is a high grade engine that is getting high grade fuel to operate.

From Sekitori ranks I am looking forward to Shodai, Mitakeumi, Ura, Sato and Daiki's futures.

But they better hurry up and get used to and prepare to stay Makuuchi before the ''Monstrous Five'' catch up to them. The five being:

Oyanagi, Ishibashi, Tamaki*, Kotokamatani and Ikegawa

They are the ones who I am following currently.

*Not too sure about Tamaki but he won two Yusho's so I decided to include him and not call the remaining four: The Elite Four.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Jyuunomori

[Atenzan 1,084]

I feel that we need to give Ishibashi (especially) and Kotokamatani some time to develop first, and talk about them in due time when they've risen to something like Ms20.

[Gurowake 4,149]

I feel that we need to give Ishibashi (especially) and Kotokamatani some time to develop first, and talk about them in due time when they've risen to something like Ms20.

Yeah, all those guys still in Makushita (or lower!) I wouldn't be quite so ready to describe as the next big thing. Abiko(Tsurugisho) won his first 20 matches, and look at him now a couple years down the road - barely managing it in the bottom half of Juryo. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on their early results; once they get to the top of Makushita and then into Juryo it'll really matter.

[Jyuunomori 238]

I feel that we need to give Ishibashi (especially) and Kotokamatani some time to develop first, and talk about them in due time when they've risen to something like Ms20.

With Kotokamatani maybe, but Ishibashi is definedly going to keep steady without makekoshi's. He is almost as good as Oyanagi and they are rivals so he has drive to catch up to him. He is currently 3-0 and the only people who have better record than him and higher than him in this basho are both ''journeymen'' and I doubt either of them or other opposition in Sandanme can contain him this basho.

Kotokamatani on the other hand is just as big as Oyanagi and Ishibashi. But he is only 18 years old. Kotokamatani is on my watchlist till he is 24 and if he hasn't made it to makuuchi by then I will abandon him. He just seems too big and skilled for his age to be anything less than top makushita/juryo rikishi. I give him two years to reach Juryobut I doubt it will take him or Ishibashi to take that long.

Ikegawa is huge and without having any skill he will make it to top makushita. But he seems to be alright in that department too. If he manages to keep his 160kg frame and work on his muscles he will become scary as hell.

In my opinion there is only two reasons for any of these kids to fail: Mentality and injuries. But I hope we will not have to worry about either of them.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Jyuunomori

[Atenzan 1,084]

I feel that we need to give Ishibashi (especially) and Kotokamatani some time to develop first, and talk about them in due time when they've risen to something like Ms20.

Yeah, all those guys still in Makushita (or lower!) I wouldn't be quite so ready to describe as the next big thing. Abiko(Tsurugisho) won his first 20 matches, and look at him now a couple years down the road - barely managing it in the bottom half of Juryo. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on their early results; once they get to the top of Makushita and then into Juryo it'll really matter.

Yeah, I felt that with Homarenishiki too (all that hype and he hits his wall in mid-sandanme?) and Tamaki now- I mean, he's 23 years old, you sorta expect him to do well that low. I f someone gets a lower-division yusho or something they're on my radar, but they can fall off pretty quickly too. But makushita-joi I do follow, and when there's a shining newcomer there like Oyanagi now, I tend to pay quite close attention.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Takayasu really surprised me with the way he won. Maybe it was just me, but I thought his change from a yori drive to the throw was genius, understanding that Kaisei was in no position to defend the throw.

Not sure what happened in Hakuhō’s bout. Takarafuji seemed to nekodamashi himself, and for some reason Hakuhō wasn’t in balance to defend the kotenage.

[Asashosakari 20,223]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is quite starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

If you're declaring an ozeki run to be ongoing anytime somebody posts >7 wins in the meatgrinder (or now even when it just looks like he might be posting >7 wins!), the concept becomes utterly meaningless. Just stop, please.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Asashosakari

[egparis18 622]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is quite starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

If you're declaring an ozeki run to be ongoing anytime somebody posts >7 wins in the meatgrinder (or now even when it just looks like he might be posting >7 wins!), the concept becomes utterly meaningless. Just stop, please.

Lighten up, why don't you?

[skepticalsports 12]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is really starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

Newbie question: I see in 2004 Hakuho was M1w when won jun-yusho, shukun-sho, and had a kinboshi -- against Asashoryu -- and was still only promoted to K1w. Is it just literally impossible to skip ranks?

[Atenzan 1,084]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is quite starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

If you're declaring an ozeki run to be ongoing anytime somebody posts >7 wins in the meatgrinder (or now even when it just looks like he might be posting >7 wins!), the concept becomes utterly meaningless. Just stop, please.

Nobody said anyone is on an ozeki run as far as the eye can see- the most similar thing anyone in this thread has said is me. To clarify, though looking back at my post I completely get why you got that vibe, I only said that Takarafuji is doing well in ozeki run territory. With that I didn't mean "ooh, look at Takarafuji, he's got a shot at ozeki!", but something more along the line of "Takarafuji is doing legitimately well against the best opposition he can face, let's see how many wins he can get!".

In any case though I don't think it's anything to get worked up about.

[Jyuunomori 238]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is really starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

Newbie question: I see in 2004 Hakuho was M1w when won jun-yusho, shukun-sho, and had a kinboshi -- against Asashoryu -- and was still only promoted to K1w. Is it just literally impossible to skip ranks?

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=12107

Here's your answer.

I rest my case.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Jyuunomori

[Atenzan 1,084]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is really starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

Newbie question: I see in 2004 Hakuho was M1w when won jun-yusho, shukun-sho, and had a kinboshi -- against Asashoryu -- and was still only promoted to K1w. Is it just literally impossible to skip ranks?

No, certainly not. It just happened that both Sekiwake finished with kachikoshi and, as a result, neither man vacated his sekiwake slot. Though had Hak been a 12- or 11-win komusubi you might have seen the bigwigs open a haridashi-sekiwake (or S2e, whatever they want us to call it) slot.

No less than 147 modern-era maegashira have been directly promoted to sekiwake:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=M&form1_year=%3E1959&form2_rank=S

[hamcornheinz 839]

People really need to stop saying "so-and-so is on an ozeki run" unless there's actually a possibility that the guy will be promoted after the current basho. I don't know if it's just overly excitable new posters or something, but that recent development around here is really starting to grate. Takarafuji isn't on an ozeki run, he's on a maybe-a-nice-kachikoshi run.

Newbie question: I see in 2004 Hakuho was M1w when won jun-yusho, shukun-sho, and had a kinboshi -- against Asashoryu -- and was still only promoted to K1w. Is it just literally impossible to skip ranks?

The banzuke is your level relative to other rikishi, and the other rikishi in the sanyaku performed extraordinarily well that basho, in fact the next basho there were 3 sekiwake. So under just about any circumstance Hakuho would be at sekiwake, this is an outlier..

[Asashosakari 20,223]

Lighten up, why don't you?

Congratulations on spectacularly missing the point. (Not that I'm surprised...)

Nobody said anyone is on an ozeki run as far as the eye can see- the most similar thing anyone in this thread has said is me.

It was a general comment about the way the subject is being talked about in recent times, and I intentionally didn't quote you - your post was just the trigger to finally say something, because (completely understandable) reactions like rhyen's to that kind of talk keep popping up. Edited July 14, 2016 by Asashosakari