Most Ethical Stables

[ChiyoFedor 0]

Hi Forum. I'm a new fan. I'm certain nearly everything I post over the next year will be considerably stupid, annoying, or old news, but please bare with me.

As I just started following sumo I'm looking for Rikishi to be interested in and root for. That is not too difficult. What is a little more difficult is to be excited regarding certain stables. After much research I've learned there have been match fixings, violent hazings, deaths, possible murders, yakuza connections, etc. I don't want to root for those Rikishi or those stables. Are there any stables that are highly regarded as particularly ethical and upstanding?

[Yamasanzan 93]

As in all sport, YOU can not choose which team/player to root for. THEY will choose you and you will like them, whether you want to or not.

[hamcornheinz 839]

I sorta miss the old days when there was a shinai as a motivator. That was old school Japanese culture. That bred hard men, with hard minds, men like Chiyonofuji and Takanohana.

Anyway your bread and butter answer would be Isegahama stable, which is probably the most prestigious stable now.

[Benevolance 2,519]

I sense a Fair Trade Sumo opportunity...

[rhyen 1,852]

I sorta miss the old days when there was a shinai as a motivator. That was old school Japanese culture. That bred hard men, with hard minds, men like Chiyonofuji and Takanohana.

Anyway your bread and butter answer would be Isegahama stable, which is probably the most prestigious stable now.

They lost Asofuji to the 2011 match fixing scandal.

[hamcornheinz 839]

I sorta miss the old days when there was a shinai as a motivator. That was old school Japanese culture. That bred hard men, with hard minds, men like Chiyonofuji and Takanohana.

Anyway your bread and butter answer would be Isegahama stable, which is probably the most prestigious stable now.

They lost Asofuji to the 2011 match fixing scandal.

Ok, but they have a yokozuna, ozeki, 3 maegashiro, among these a former sekiwake who is also one of the smartest men in the business, and a former komosubi. Match fixing was a very secret affair, I doubt these people knew about it. Hakuho, the GOAT, had an arrest from his stable just a few days ago. You sorta have to accept that there are the good and the bad in all stables.

[ChiyoFedor 0]

I sorta miss the old days when there was a shinai as a motivator. That was old school Japanese culture. That bred hard men, with hard minds, men like Chiyonofuji and Takanohana.

Anyway your bread and butter answer would be Isegahama stable, which is probably the most prestigious stable now.

Isegahama so far has been the one that stood out for me. Kotetsuyama, whom had the brass balls to out Sumo match fixing, was from Asasiyama which was just recently dissolved, but was part of the Isegahama ichimon.

Anyway, is there anything I should know about Chiyotairyu (My favorite Rikishi so far) or the Kokone stable? (I have my fingers crossed that they are basically just the Camelot of Sumo).

Edited November 29, 2015 by ChiyoFedor

[hamcornheinz 839]

I sorta miss the old days when there was a shinai as a motivator. That was old school Japanese culture. That bred hard men, with hard minds, men like Chiyonofuji and Takanohana.

Anyway your bread and butter answer would be Isegahama stable, which is probably the most prestigious stable now.

Isegahama so far has been the one that stood out for me. Kotetsuyama, whom had the brass balls to out Sumo match fixing, was from Asasiyama which was just recently dissolved, but was part of the Isegahama ichimon.

Anyway, is there anything I should know about Chiyotairyu (My favorite Rikishi so far) or the Kokone stable? (I have my fingers crossed that they are basically just the Camelot of Sumo).

Why are you so stuck on stables? most stables have only one sekitori- most stables aren't successful en masse. Hakuho and Kakuryu, the two yokozuna, come from some of the worst stables out there. The individual wrestlers are much more important that the people they train with.

[ALAKTORN 346]

All the spelling mistakes in this thread are giving me a headache.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

All stables are honest stables. I am sure that the oyakata do not suggest to any of their rikishi to lose on purpose for any reason. If there are dealings, they are between the rikishi.

As for the spelling mistakes, this is an international forum - I will go out on a limb and say that the majority of members' first language is not English.

So just bare with it.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Kintamayama

[Usagi 36]

Right. Complaining about spelling mistakes in an international forum isn't helpfull at all. I for example am German, Motis is Israeli and we even have Monglians around here.

Concerning the thread-question: I guess it is hard to find real differences without excellent insider knowledge. There sholud be nothing like a progressive left wing fair trade heya around, I am afraid. ;-)

And, as mentioned, many heyas don't even have a sekitori. And a heya with 3 or 4 Sektiori (Makuuchi or Juryo ranked rikishi) can be without any sekitori 5 years from now.

Much easier to find out about are the individual style and manners of a rikishi: Is he doing henka? Is he giving extra shoves? Does he use grips that can hurt a guys elbow? Though he has an arrogant appeal, Kisenosato i.e. is a very fair acting rikishi. An other example comig to my mind is Aoiyama - though both certainly don't do very exciting sumo.

Ichinojo will never do a henka as well - he just isn't fast enough.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Usagi

[Usagi 36]

As in all sport, YOU can not choose which team/player to root for. THEY will choose you and you will like them, whether you want to or not.

I would oppose. The older I get, the more do I chose my teams rather by mind than by heart. If I'd ever move to Israel I'd sure become fan of Hapoel Tel Aviv - just because of the political views of the fans. I diapprove my soccer team's sponsors over the last years an have lost sympathies for them, though I am hoping for better times. You actually CAN choose.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

As in all sport, YOU can not choose which team/player to root for. THEY will choose you and you will like them, whether you want to or not.

I would oppose. The older I get, the more do I chose my teams rather by mind than by heart. If I'd ever move to Israel I'd sure become fan of Hapoel Tel Aviv - just because of the political views of the fans. I diapprove my soccer team's sponsors over the last years an have lost sympathies for them, though I am hoping for better times. You actually CAN choose.

Hapoel have been having a rough time these last few years..

[ALAKTORN 346]

Right. Complaining about spelling mistakes in an international forum isn't helpfull at all. I for example am German, Motis is Israeli and we even have Monglians around here.

And I’m Italian. Usually the misspellings are interspersed between a multitude of posts, but in this thread I read something like 4 posts in a row with them so it especially stood out. Edit: Btw I meant misspellings of Japanese sumō terms, as well.

Ichinojo will never do a henka as well - he just isn't fast enough.

Are you sure about that?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zdCuLApHFUk?start=813&autoplay=1

Edited November 30, 2015 by ALAKTORN

[Tenshinhan 1,612]

Right. Complaining about spelling mistakes in an international forum isn't helpfull at all. I for example am German, Motis is Israeli and we even have Monglians around here.

And I’m Italian. Usually the misspellings are interspersed between a multitude of posts, but in this thread I read something like 4 posts in a row with them so it especially stood out. Edit: Btw I meant misspellings of Japanese sumō terms, as well.

Ichinojo will never do a henka as well - he just isn't fast enough.

Are you sure about that?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zdCuLApHFUk?start=813&autoplay=1

Didn't 1-nojo even henka Kakuryu AND Kisenosato within two or three days during his makuuchi debut tournament? (Henka!!!)

[hamcornheinz 839]

Right. Complaining about spelling mistakes in an international forum isn't helpfull at all. I for example am German, Motis is Israeli and we even have Monglians around here.

And I’m Italian. Usually the misspellings are interspersed between a multitude of posts, but in this thread I read something like 4 posts in a row with them so it especially stood out. Edit: Btw I meant misspellings of Japanese sumō terms, as well.

Ichinojo will never do a henka as well - he just isn't fast enough.

Are you sure about that?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zdCuLApHFUk?start=813&autoplay=1

The pretnsiousnes si gvin me a haedache[

[shumitto 418]

My two cents:

I once tried to pick my football team based on the club's history or the political views of the fans. It was almost impossible to find a "political match" as political ideas are painted outside political circles with very broad strokes and it's hard to relate with, but most importantly I found myself forced to root for someone I really had no emotional connection with. That happened before and before I realized having a hierarchy of preferences where someone or some club had always to stay on top is not like me. The question of preferences and how we make choices is indeed an interesting one but I have to let it here lest I drift into philosophy.

I would suggest you simply followed sumo and let it flow. You will end up liking some rikishi and some heya that later on might reveal being something you don't like, but that is the price you pay when you buy something sight unseen (as it usually happens in life). Who knows what happens behind the closed doors of a heya anyway ? No one will reprimand you for being unfaithful to your favourite heya or rikishi later on if you should change your mind, unlike in football circles where infidelity is almost seen as a sacrilege.

As to the language question, I will try to be brief. I have made and make many mistakes in English and as a non-native speaker with no personal contact with native speakers I make this allowance for me and anyone in similar conditions. That's why my language production might look so stiff. That said, I think what Alaktorn was referring to was to those with good language skills writing carelessly rather than to foreigners struggling to convey their thoughts clearly. Anyway, the condescending tone didn't help his case.

Edited November 30, 2015 by shumitto

[orandashoho 720]

To which extent does the oyakata define a heya?

Heyas have a long history, oyakatas come and go. Does a kabu-holding oyakata need to observe traditions defined by the history of the heya, or is he free to steer a radically new course?

For a newly set up heya like Asakayama there seems to be no question. Everything is determined by ex-Kaio, who has to do everything himself. Ooshima (ex-Kyokutenho) will have to set up anew too, with or without ex-Ooshima rikishi and support staff returning -- it seems a monumental task. It seems to be far easier to succeed into a heya that is running and have a smooth transition without interruption of essential operations, just stepping into the old oyakata's shoes. In such cases, would there be more pressure to continue as before, and less opportunity to make changes? Especially if the stable is big and has many successful rikishi?

Fascinating stuff, if you think about it. The oyakata may be the holder of the name, in charge of the organization, the environment, the training... untimately it is through the fame of the rikishi that the heya will thrive.

[Asashosakari 19,943]

It seems to be far easier to succeed into a heya that is running and have a smooth transition without interruption of essential operations, just stepping into the old oyakata's shoes. In such cases, would there be more pressure to continue as before, and less opportunity to make changes? Especially if the stable is big and has many successful rikishi?

Besides the personal relationship of a shisho with his predecessor, I think it highly depends on the financial power of the shisho. The more he's able to be his own man, the less he'll be dependent on the old guy (who might still own the heya premises) and/or the established koenkai structure of the heya. A popular ex-ozeki succeeding a mostly forgotten ex-sekiwake is probably an easier scenario than the opposite version.

In general I think most shisho (or potential shisho) would prefer to run things as they see fit, and they'll try to choose a route that allows them to do that. Over the last couple of decades we've seen quite a few big-name stables become entirely dysfunctional (Mihogaseki, the old Nishonoseki, the old Isegahama, etc.) - I think it's no coincidence that nobody stepped up to take over in those cases, despite the instant prestige that would have come with being at the helm of those heya. Conversely, if a stable is being run well, say Sadogatake or even a smaller outfit like Azumazeki, taking over will be much more desirable. (Not least because in those situations the successor probably doesn't have any large-scale disagreements with how things had been done.)

Edited November 30, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Naganoyama 5,971]

Reading this thread makes me think that the idea of trying to follow an ethical stable is going to be fraught with difficulties, the main one being identifying such a stable in the first place.

Tokitsukaze - link with beatings and murder

Kokonoe - link with steroids?

Onomatsu - link with gangsters

variety of stables - link with match-fixing

Sadogatake and others - link with gambling

Kasugayama - illicit sex

etc etc etc

You could take the advice of several members and follow your heart.

You could go for the suggestion that you follow the most prestigious stable - probably Isegahama.

You could go for a stable with a famously gachinko oyakata such as Tamanoi.

Or you could consider following a new stable virtually from scratch, on the basis that it has not accumulated any adverse history and you can enjoy watching its oyakata and rikishi build up from nothing. In that case Asakayama might be a good choice or the new Musashigawa. Or you might go the whole hog and wait for moto-Kyokutenho to re-establish Oshima Beya.

[inhashi 2,363]

Or like the seasons, your preferences may constantly and gradually change. Especially in regards to a singular or multiple rikishi. It may be based on their style of sumo, rank, personal characteristics etc. When one inevitably retires who will then replace your favorite?

Edited November 30, 2015 by inhashi

[Kintamayama 45,974]

Or you could consider following a new stable virtually from scratch, on the basis that it has not accumulated any adverse history and you can enjoy watching its oyakata and rikishi build up from nothing. In that case Asakayama might be a good choice or the new Musashigawa. Or you might go the whole hog and wait for moto-Kyokutenho to re-establish Oshima Beya.

Or you can totally ignore the heya thingy. I'm not sure there are more than a handful of fans here who can actually place all Makuuchi rikishi in their respective heyas.. And that includes me. Personally, a rikishi's heya affiliation means next to nothing to me. I'm a big fan of Ikioi because he is Ikioi and not because he belongs to that heya that I can't remember right now without looking it up oh I looked it up and it's Isenoumi beya.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Kintamayama

[ALAKTORN 346]

Didn't 1-nojo even henka Kakuryu AND Kisenosato within two or three days during his makuuchi debut tournament? (Henka!!!)

Oh, you’re right. I remembered he did 2 of them but I thought the other was against Harumafuji (who I found out was kyūjō) so I thought I remembered wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/KXr4UeY1Q28?start=626&autoplay=1

Edited December 1, 2015 by ALAKTORN

[hamcornheinz 839]

It also impresses me that, since they are only in heavy training duty when they aren't traveling or competing, and they travel for quite a few days, AND the seketori get together in one beya to train a whole lot of the time (forgot what we call that)... the top wrestlers probably spend almost as much time doing sumo outside of the beya doors than inside- and almost none of them live in the beya as well.

[krindel 684]

I always find the characterization of an institution, company or other organized group of people as "ethical" misleading. Even brushing aside the wide differences on what each person characterizes as "ethical", my opinion is that there might be such a thing as an ethical person, but can't see how you can apply that to an entire group. Even the most well meaning organizations tend to have hangers on that are just there for the plunder.

For example, the OP says he wouldn't want to support rikishi from a stable that has a violent stablemaster who is accused of hazing. But who has he been hazing? The rikishi, of course... So basically, what you are saying is that you wouldn't want to support even the rikishi that have suffered hazing?

Of course, I do understand the idea that in most cases, when the culture of the stable is pro-hazing, then the high rankers of the stable will probably be a part of it as well. But I am trying to say that even if your criterion for supporting a rikishi is ethics, you should try to judge each one individually, and not try to group them in any way.

A very good example is the recent Kumagatani oyakata scandal, who has admitted to torturing his personal helper. Kumagatani was nominally part of Miyagino stable (and an ex-stablemaster), but in truth he was someone that was imposed on the stable by circumstances and the Kyokai. Why on earth would you judge the current Miyagino-oyakata and the rikishi there for the actions of someone whose presence they had to endure and couldn't do anything about?