Sign in to follow this  
CT3*

Basho Talk Haru 2015

Recommended Posts

There is one solution, and that is to only allow Hakuho to wrestle bears.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also glad to see the Kasutera crap-talking reverse-curse is still holding on Gagamaru.

Now I have to find another struggling rikishi to disparage so the sumo gods will give him strength to make me look dumb.

HEY! SHOHOZAN! You SUCK! I HATE YOU!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With Tochinoshin winning his first yesterday, there are now 25 active rikishi who have won kinboshi. The last time we had that many was in the 2004 Kyushu basho, in which Hakuho won his first and only kinboshi. Wakanosato, Aminishiki and Kyokutenho are the other remaining rikishi from that basho's kinboshi experience.

I believe Kotoyuki is the sixth Makuuchi rikishi in the modern era to return to action the day after a fusenpai. Previous cases listed below - the reasons are what I have read elsewhere, so pinch of salt and all that.

Shinobuyama, 1931 Hatsu. Fever.

Banshinzan, 1937 Haru. Travelled to his hometown following the death of his father.

Narutoumi, 1950 Hatsu. Required treatment for suppurative arthritis of the left elbow.

Ouchiyama, 1951 Natsu. Suffered from a severe case of haemorrhoids.

Tokibayama, 1968 Kyushu. Running a high fever due to tonsillitis.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hakuho has this one in the bag. If he would magically disappear, we'd have a super fun yusho race every basho though.

... and Alexander wept, for there were no more worlds for him to conquer.

I have been having the suspicion that Hakuho is facing a mid-life crisis lately. Having just turned 30, and while still at full health, he suddenly finds himself surplus to the requirements of sumo.

Taiho's record is gone, and with it goes the last really motivating target that he could aspire to, and the last aspect that seemed able to keep the public's interest in the current situation. Just one basho later, we are on day 9, and Hakuho is already 3 wins ahead of anyone who would appear to be a credible threat for the Yusho. The warping effect his dominance has on the banzuke and the yusho race is as pronounced as ever, if not more. Yet what is it there for him to aim at?

Expanding records is far far more boring than breaking them after all, I have no doubt that the Yusho winning celebrations at Miyagino have long become "business as usual". In fact I remember thinking at the time that he looked happier at Kyokutenho's victory parade than most of his own...

There are of course some records he can still break (Futabayama, Kaio, etc), but they all have one thing in common; they are mostly, if not completely, streak related, and hence by definition repetitive and thus boring. What I mean is that he could give breaking Futabayama's record a try (which is what he's doing now, I think), but breaking that will probably lead to 3 dead boring basho as he will have to plow through the opposition.

So then what? No one is yet ready to really challenge him, but he's really still not ready to call it quits, especially as he stays healthy. He tried his hand at mentoring, but Daikiho was a flat-out bust, and while Ishiura is doing decently enough, I am not sure if Hakuho has found his calling in coaching. We are then, at a point where he himself is bored of the current level of competition, he understands that his own success is becoming a negative factor for sumo but at the same time he is not ready to retire yet and has not even decided yet what to do after retiring anyway.

Of course, most of this is speculation on my part, but I do believe this is pretty close to the truth, and is at least in part my explanation for Hakuho's bad temper. In fact, I think its a hard situation for the entire sumo establishment, and its interesting to see how everyone deals with it.

I agree with a lot of this. However, there is one thing Hakuho could still do for sumo and that is to be the stumbling block that the next big thing has to overcome to become the next great Yokozuna. In the same way Hak had to overcome the dominance of Asashoryu to become the champion he became, I would love to see someone come through and challenge Hakuho in the same way, and prove he is the real deal on his own terms. How much more exciting would it be for one of these young guys to come through and prove themselves by beating Hak rather than becoming a Yok while he wasn't there? I think it would be much better for a young guy to knock Hak off the top of the tree, rather than get there in his absence.

Of course, Hak is so good that nobody may get near him, he may continue to beat all comers and his dominance will eventually bore us all into submission. He may retire as dominant as he is now, holding all the records that will likely never be broken, at least with this generation of rikishi. But just maybe a young kid will come up and give him a run for his money. That's what I'm hoping for. Hak deserves all the plaudits everyone gives him, he is probably the best there has ever been, and I am in awe every time I see him throw someone like a rag doll. But I'd love to see someone knock him off.

(Note: I want this scenario because I'm also a pro wrestling fan and in pro wrestling it is the obligation of the top guys to put over the next big thing on their way out. Of course, that is a manufactured sport while sumo is the real thing, but there is some wisdom in their approach, and they do it because it is the most exciting scenario available. As Rick Flair said, "to be the Man you have to beat the Man").

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're using pro wrestling logic, there's always more money with a babyface chasing a heel champion, so Hakuho is definitely playing heel with his trash-talking the refs and ignoring the press. WHO will be the Dusty Rhodes to his Ric Flair?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the picture of Toyonoshima's ballet move and Ama flying in the crowd would make an amazing sumo poster ( or at least a funny gif).

If you catch a live clip there are many jaws dropping among the crowd.

I think I found my new wallpaper, too good!

tumblr_nlca92Samz1tu97pzo3_400.giftumblr_nlca92Samz1tu97pzo7_400.gif

Toyonoshima is my favorite, this made my basho. That was insane, skills

More I make:

https://www.tumblr.com/blog/sumobasho

Edited by 808morgan
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Day 10 - Aminishiki popped a knee. Had to be helped out. Probably kyujo. :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh sh#t!

Aminishiki just not only lost against Tokushoryu but also hurt his right knee in the process.

Tough break for him after such a fantastic start. :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now Tokitenku is limping as well - just a little bit though but he grimaced when Takayasu twisted him down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has this been asked yet because it has been bugging me all basho:

What is the deal with Sadanoumi's mage? It goes flaccid almost immediately after every tachiai. I haven't noticed it in previous basho, just this one. Is it his hair that is an issue or his tokoyama or what?

Edited by Asameshimae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with a lot of this. However, there is one thing Hakuho could still do for sumo and that is to be the stumbling block that the next big thing has to overcome to become the next great Yokozuna. In the same way Hak had to overcome the dominance of Asashoryu to become the champion he became, I would love to see someone come through and challenge Hakuho in the same way, and prove he is the real deal on his own terms. How much more exciting would it be for one of these young guys to come through and prove themselves by beating Hak rather than becoming a Yok while he wasn't there? I think it would be much better for a young guy to knock Hak off the top of the tree, rather than get there in his absence.

The problem is that for things to be interesting the challenger should have already appeared. Hakuho's breaking of Taiho's record was already anticlimactic, with 5 consecutive Yusho and very little challenge. It was a bit like watching a sprinter break the world record by walking to the finish line. Unless Terunofuji or Ichinojo can step up and challenge Hakuho right now (which based on current data would be surprising, in my opinion), the timing has been more or less lost. If we face a year of Hakuho yawning his way to wins and trying to see if he can fight with a pirate's eye patch to imitate Futabayama's blindness, by the time a true challenger appears he will no longer have the edge or the motivation to provide the stumbling block you mention and he'll just retire, I think.

And that's the real difference between an arranged spectacle and a sport, challenges and thrills don't come on demand, and so not necessarily at the most convenient timing.

Anyway, this is all speculation, of course, and we'll have to wait and see what happens. At least Terunofuji is still keeping strong to provide some interest to the current basho :-).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that for things to be interesting the challenger should have already appeared. Hakuho's breaking of Taiho's record was already anticlimactic, with 5 consecutive Yusho and very little challenge. It was a bit like watching a sprinter break the world record by walking to the finish line.

Eh, isn't it rather the other way around? I understand what you mean, but Hakuho made a mad dash to break the all-time record, no? Limping and walking would equate a lot of "yokozunaitis"-style kyujo while winning once a year in the twilight of his career which would be the typical end for even the best of them, compare:

Taiho: 2 yusho in his last two years

Kitanoumi: 1 yusho in his last three years

Takanohana: 2 yusho in his last four years

Asashoryu even with an artificially cut short career had only 2 yusho in his last eleven basho

Akebono went out strong (if you omit his pro wrestling career), but with some cherry picking he had only 3 yusho in his last three years

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that for things to be interesting the challenger should have already appeared. Hakuho's breaking of Taiho's record was already anticlimactic, with 5 consecutive Yusho and very little challenge. It was a bit like watching a sprinter break the world record by walking to the finish line.

Eh, isn't it rather the other way around? I understand what you mean, but Hakuho made a mad dash to break the all-time record, no? Limping and walking would equate a lot of "yokozunaitis"-style kyujo while winning once a year in the twilight of his career which would be the typical end for even the best of them, compare:

Taiho: 2 yusho in his last two years

Kitanoumi: 1 yusho in his last three years

Takanohana: 2 yusho in his last four years

Asashoryu even with an artificially cut short career had only 2 yusho in his last eleven basho

Akebono went out strong (if you omit his pro wrestling career), but with some cherry picking he had only 3 yusho in his last three years

Indeed, and kudos to him for making it look that easy. However, I meant that as far as suspense goes, it would have been preferable if he had to battle through an up and coming challenger to grab the last few needed Yusho for the record.

I have no doubt that the "plan" was for him to reach the stage of decline that marked the careers of everyone you mention, after all its the expected way for a Yokozuna to go out, after he can no longer fight. I am just pointing out that the way the timing worked out, there's a real risk of serious boredom occurring before that even happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Putting guys over and Ric Flair in the same sentence. Never have seen that before :D

If someone is going to challenge Hakuho, he needs to come up fast because I don't think he will go on fightng if he is phisacally not 100 percent anymore and from 30 onwards it is probably more down than up. Maybe it's Terunofuji?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Expanding records is far far more boring than breaking them after all

I dare to disagree with the "far far" part. I make an argument based on interviews of Roger Federer, Tiger Woods, Ronnie O'Sullivan. Without citing any particular statements, they all made it very clear that breaking the all-time records in Grand Slam victories, No.1 weeks, No. 1 years, maximum breaks etc. meant a lot to them but the motivation to go even further is as strong as it always was, just for the love to their sport. Only this love got them where they are at all. There is also one common statement of the three - they don't think much about the records during the tournaments. They care about the next ball, the next set, the next match. They focus on the current opponent, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to perform so consistently.

So what I assume, without having read many clear statements of Hakuho himself, that he is also taking it one bout at a time, one basho at a time. He is so devoted to Sumo, only injury and been beaten all the time will make him retire, not breaking some more or less relevant all-time records.

In my opinion, calling Sumo boring cause the Yusho record challenge is gone is a problem of the superficial Sumo follower. To the opposite, it is a particular interesting time now, to see whether Terunofuji and Ichinojo grow to be a real challenge for the Yokozuna, even younger prospects Kagayaki and Onosho are in the making, and there are still Endo and Osunaarashi to watch for, just to name a few.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with a lot of this. However, there is one thing Hakuho could still do for sumo and that is to be the stumbling block that the next big thing has to overcome to become the next great Yokozuna. In the same way Hak had to overcome the dominance of Asashoryu to become the champion he became, I would love to see someone come through and challenge Hakuho in the same way, and prove he is the real deal on his own terms. How much more exciting would it be for one of these young guys to come through and prove themselves by beating Hak rather than becoming a Yok while he wasn't there? I think it would be much better for a young guy to knock Hak off the top of the tree, rather than get there in his absence.

The problem is that for things to be interesting the challenger should have already appeared. Hakuho's breaking of Taiho's record was already anticlimactic, with 5 consecutive Yusho and very little challenge. It was a bit like watching a sprinter break the world record by walking to the finish line. Unless Terunofuji or Ichinojo can step up and challenge Hakuho right now (which based on current data would be surprising, in my opinion), the timing has been more or less lost. If we face a year of Hakuho yawning his way to wins and trying to see if he can fight with a pirate's eye patch to imitate Futabayama's blindness, by the time a true challenger appears he will no longer have the edge or the motivation to provide the stumbling block you mention and he'll just retire, I think.

And that's the real difference between an arranged spectacle and a sport, challenges and thrills don't come on demand, and so not necessarily at the most convenient timing.

Anyway, this is all speculation, of course, and we'll have to wait and see what happens. At least Terunofuji is still keeping strong to provide some interest to the current basho :-).

I doubt it will happen, but imagine if Teronofuji beats him when they meet in a day or so. Then they go to a play-off on Senshuraku and the kid wins! Instant rivalry for the next couple of basho, while we see if he can back it up. Of course, it won't happen...

Edited by Morty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think someone mentioned him doing it a day or so ago, but Tamawashi laid a beautiful nut on Ichinojo today before he got forced out. The slow-mo shows it perfectly, and may have precipitated the slight extra shove off the dohyo dished out by Ichinojo at the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That could be and a lot of what goes on in Hakuho's head makes for some fascinating speculation. But in the end I guess we'll only find out in 10 or 15 years, if at all. I wonder if he really does love sumo as much as Andreas suggested?

I think the biggest problem with having a challenger appear and take over is Hakuho himself. If he's one of the best, if not *the* best sumo wrestler the world has seen, how can you expect someone to appear and surpass him? It simply might not happen. That just leaves either sudden injury, growing age or voluntary retirement. And any of those might be years away for Hakuho -- hopefully he'll not get injured as many unfortunately have this basho (seriously, what's up with that? Rikishi are dropping left and right).

On another topic, I think what Kintamayama keeps saying in his excellent videos is right -- Oosunaarashi has a lot of potential at the belt. Here's hoping that he'll notice that himself and adjust his style to make more use of that potential. That would be an exciting prospect.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Hakuho this and Hakuho that, but more importantly, what is the deal with Sadanoumi's mage? :'-(

It flops right back into a pony tail every tachiai that I can remember this basho. I have to imagine his tokyoyama is cringing when he watches. 'tis weird.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't find watching excellence and dominance boring.

I think the recent "scandal" over his comments after years and years of exemplary and almost deferential behavior has pissed Hakuho off. And now he's simply focused on kicking butt.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Expanding records is far far more boring than breaking them after all

I dare to disagree with the "far far" part. I make an argument based on interviews of Roger Federer, Tiger Woods, Ronnie O'Sullivan. Without citing any particular statements, they all made it very clear that breaking the all-time records in Grand Slam victories, No.1 weeks, No. 1 years, maximum breaks etc. meant a lot to them but the motivation to go even further is as strong as it always was, just for the love to their sport. Only this love got them where they are at all. There is also one common statement of the three - they don't think much about the records during the tournaments. They care about the next ball, the next set, the next match. They focus on the current opponent, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to perform so consistently.

So what I assume, without having read many clear statements of Hakuho himself, that he is also taking it one bout at a time, one basho at a time. He is so devoted to Sumo, only injury and been beaten all the time will make him retire, not breaking some more or less relevant all-time records.

In my opinion, calling Sumo boring cause the Yusho record challenge is gone is a problem of the superficial Sumo follower. To the opposite, it is a particular interesting time now, to see whether Terunofuji and Ichinojo grow to be a real challenge for the Yokozuna, even younger prospects Kagayaki and Onosho are in the making, and there are still Endo and Osunaarashi to watch for, just to name a few.

I wouldn't necessarily believe what everyone says in interviews. Am I really to believe that a top level athlete really treats every bout as the same? No sense of historical importance whatsoever? No excitement for a special accomplishment, no sense of overall achievement beyond that of the current job well done?

If that was so, I would assume Hak would also be equally dominant in the various non-honbasho bouts, which is definitely not the case. In any case, I am not in his mind, and I only gave my suspicions of what is happening in his head at the moment. I could definitely be very much in the wrong here.

And I didn't call Sumo boring because the Yusho record has been broken. I just said that there hasn't been a real Yusho race in ages, and that makes us have to focus on interesting, but secondary aspects of a honbasho. I like watching the development of up and comers as much as the next person, but if preferring to see a bit of a rivalry and the winner having to give it their all to succeed makes me a superficial Sumo follower, then so be it...

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Expanding records is far far more boring than breaking them after all

I dare to disagree with the "far far" part. I make an argument based on interviews of Roger Federer, Tiger Woods, Ronnie O'Sullivan. Without citing any particular statements, they all made it very clear that breaking the all-time records in Grand Slam victories, No.1 weeks, No. 1 years, maximum breaks etc. meant a lot to them but the motivation to go even further is as strong as it always was, just for the love to their sport. Only this love got them where they are at all. There is also one common statement of the three - they don't think much about the records during the tournaments. They care about the next ball, the next set, the next match. They focus on the current opponent, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to perform so consistently.

So what I assume, without having read many clear statements of Hakuho himself, that he is also taking it one bout at a time, one basho at a time. He is so devoted to Sumo, only injury and been beaten all the time will make him retire, not breaking some more or less relevant all-time records.

In my opinion, calling Sumo boring cause the Yusho record challenge is gone is a problem of the superficial Sumo follower. To the opposite, it is a particular interesting time now, to see whether Terunofuji and Ichinojo grow to be a real challenge for the Yokozuna, even younger prospects Kagayaki and Onosho are in the making, and there are still Endo and Osunaarashi to watch for, just to name a few.

I wouldn't necessarily believe what everyone says in interviews. Am I really to believe that a top level athlete really treats every bout as the same? No sense of historical importance whatsoever? No excitement for a special accomplishment, no sense of overall achievement beyond that of the current job well done?

If that was so, I would assume Hak would also be equally dominant in the various non-honbasho bouts, which is definitely not the case. In any case, I am not in his mind, and I only gave my suspicions of what is happening in his head at the moment. I could definitely be very much in the wrong here.

And I didn't call Sumo boring because the Yusho record has been broken. I just said that there hasn't been a real Yusho race in ages, and that makes us have to focus on interesting, but secondary aspects of a honbasho. I like watching the development of up and comers as much as the next person, but if preferring to see a bit of a rivalry and the winner having to give it their all to succeed makes me a superficial Sumo follower, then so be it...

Agreed on most counts. I will actually be going to Osaka to see the last few days of sumo. I don't have senshuraku tickets and may have to go home without being able to attend the last day; but is that really such a loss if there is so little chance of a big match to decide the yusho? If there were rivalry at the top to speak of, perhaps I might be less fixated on Sadanoumi's flopping mage.. Having said that, I have yet to have my fill of sumo, even with the Hegemon ruling over all.

Edited by Asameshimae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What was all that red on Terunofuji’s left shoulder? He’s doing amazing this basho, anyone predicts him to be an ōzeki in 2 more?

Harumafuji was also impressive today. I thought he had no chance, but he persisted so much and pulled it off in the end. Incredible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dare to disagree with the "far far" part. I make an argument based on interviews of Roger Federer, Tiger Woods, Ronnie O'Sullivan. Without citing any particular statements, they all made it very clear that breaking the all-time records in Grand Slam victories, No.1 weeks, No. 1 years, maximum breaks etc. meant a lot to them but the motivation to go even further is as strong as it always was, just for the love to their sport. Only this love got them where they are at all.

The big difference is that all three are active in sports that feature more and less important tournaments, and thus it's feasible - and accepted - that they'll concentrate their efforts on the biggest events. (Federer has earned the right to play fewer mandatory events than anybody else in tennis, IIRC.) Hakuho would get pressured into retirement if he so much as thought about doing an "I'm skipping this tournament to save my energies for the next one", let alone actually did it. The "grind" is much more of a mental burden for aging top athletes in sumo than in most other sports, IMHO.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this