Extraordinary happening

[ilovesumo 12]

@ Shibouyama

Thanks for creating such a "great scene" I will dream of tonight ... (Foot in mouth...) UGH!

[Zeokage 0]

Unfortunally, maybe it is just a naive european feeling. I know thatKotonowaka's father in law, who was oyakata at Sadotake-beya before Kotonowaka left the doyho to become oyakata Sadotake, was not shy from disciplining his trainees with brute force if nescessary.

Even former Sadogatake Oyakata can be wrong, there's only one person in universe who can't ... (Foot in mouth...)

Of course that person being our very own Kintamayama...

[Shakuyaku 0]

I didn't say that he was right either. I just pointed out that it is a very japanese way of dealing with thing. Maybe not slapping, but doing as you are told, expecially when your elders are involved.

[Fay 1,677]

Unfortunately it might be the essence of Japanese scoiety philosophy of elders and juniors. The smacking of the face aside, I don't believe things are much different in any traditionally run Japanese corporate. Since sumo is the epitome of physicality anyway, beating the deshi up is just an extension of that.

So, basically this might be a naive European feeling, yes...

Yes I know this might be the essence, but I think young people in Japan see that there are also other models of living and are not willing to follow the old philosophy.

[Fay 1,677]

But this is only a naive european feeling ...

You got it. That's the way it has always been , is and will be. This is nothing new, this is what sumo centers around. Sumo is not about cute rikishi. Get real, Europe.

Cute Rikishi or not cute, everybody should be handled respectfully.

That's the way it has always been ... yes unfortunately, but this is no argument that some things should not change. Hopefully all of us develop in our lives and learn.

[ilovesumo 12]

Yes I know this might be the essence, but I think young people in Japan see that there are also other models of living and are not willing to follow the old philosophy.

I think so too.

[Guest Nikyo]

Later, in the Rijicho's office, Rohou was asked to shake Chiyotaikai's hand as an act of reconciliation. He hesitated and answered back. That's when his shishou Otake Oyakata (ex-Takatouriki) smacked him one across the face, forcing him to shake that hand.

Nobody seems to be irritated by this...

In

Besides Roho and Taikai ... are people really wondering that there is only a small rising sumo generation in Japan?

You're grown-up (even worse when you are a child or a very young man), you make a mistake (or your Oyakata thinks so) and he is allowed to smack you across your face??? And then you bow and say thank you for the punishment, you're right, forgive me, I will do better next time ...

This is mediaeval and disgracing, nobody deserves such a treatment and to accept this has nothing to do with showing respect or with the beauty of sumo.

But this is only a naive european feeling ...

I am sure you are aware of the enormous differences between the japanese culture and the western culture in general. You have to take these in account.

By reading your post I get the feeling that you assume that wetern culture is superior to japanese culture, in which case you are heading down a very slippery slope.

[Fay 1,677]

I am sure you are aware of the enormous differences between the japanese culture and the western culture in general. You have to take these in account.

By reading your post I get the feeling that you assume that wetern culture is superior to japanese culture, in which case you are heading down a very slippery slope.

Oh my God....

I don't assume any culture to be superior, the only thing I say is that you should handle everybody like you want to be handled yourself.

And this should be so for cute and ugly rikishi, for oyakatas, for Japanese and European - for everybody.

[ilovesumo 12]

The Japanese society is against individualism...but that is the point that changes. The youth want's to be individual. Read about this. I did.

And if it's just a key ring on a school bag, it makes the kid more individual, makes the group smaller the kid plays part in. So the kid as individual person get's more confidence. Confidence is rising and that is why the old system won't work forever.

Edited July 16, 2006 by ilovesumo

[Guest benzys]

I am sure you are aware of the enormous differences between the japanese culture and the western culture in general. You have to take these in account.

By reading your post I get the feeling that you assume that wetern culture is superior to japanese culture, in which case you are heading down a very slippery slope.

Oh my God....

I don't assume any culture to be superior, the only thing I say is that you should handle everybody like you want to be handled yourself.

And this should be so for cute and ugly rikishi, for oyakatas, for Japanese and European - for everybody.

OK, Fay, maybe you honestly don't assume either culture to be superior, but you do seem to expect a Japanese traditional establishment to forsake Japanese culture in favor of your own. Anybody joining Sumo knows that this is the way it is. Nobody forced wrestlers from European culture to join Sumo. If they don't like the traditions and practices, they should wrestle within establishments governed by European culture.

[Fay 1,677]

]

OK, Fay, maybe you honestly don't assume either culture to be superior, but you do seem to expect a Japanese traditional establishment to forsake Japanese culture in favor of your own. Anybody joining Sumo knows that this is the way it is. Nobody forced wrestlers from European culture to join Sumo. If they don't like the traditions and practices, they should wrestle within establishments governed by European culture.

They surely know that this is the way it is and they are there voluntary of course. What I want to say is nobody has the right to beat another person.

Would you beat your children? Or if you were a boss would you beat your employees? That's what some oyakatas or rikishi do.

I don't think this is right and that's why I say one should reform this. Of course my words are not infallible, nobody has to listen to them, and if you can convince me that this is necessary for the education of young people I will correct me.

[Notsukutsu 0]

OK, Fay, maybe you honestly don't assume either culture to be superior, but you do seem to expect a Japanese traditional establishment to forsake Japanese culture in favor of your own. Anybody joining Sumo knows that this is the way it is. Nobody forced wrestlers from European culture to join Sumo. If they don't like the traditions and practices, they should wrestle within establishments governed by European culture.

The fact is that the Japanese youth aren't really flocking to join the Sumo world, either.

I suspect just as the rest of the world, the young Japanese people of today likewise expect more respect and encouragement than their fathers did.

Just a few generations ago, say corporal punishment at schools might've been nothing out of the ordinary, but you just can't expect some things to stay the same on the 21st century.

[ilovesumo 12]

OK, Fay, maybe you honestly don't assume either culture to be superior, but you do seem to expect a Japanese traditional establishment to forsake Japanese culture in favor of your own. Anybody joining Sumo knows that this is the way it is. Nobody forced wrestlers from European culture to join Sumo. If they don't like the traditions and practices, they should wrestle within establishments governed by European culture.

The fact is that the Japanese youth aren't really flocking to join the Sumo world, either.

I suspect just as the rest of the world, the young Japanese people of today likewise expect more respect and encouragement than their fathers did.

Just a few generations ago, say corporal punishment at schools might've been nothing out of the ordinary, but you just can't expect some things to stay the same on the 21st century.

(Foot in mouth...)

[Guest benkei]

They surely know that this is the way it is and they are there voluntary of course. What I want to say is nobody has the right to beat another person.

Would you beat your children? Or if you were a boss would you beat your employees? That's what some oyakatas or rikishi do.

I don't think this is right and that's why I say one should reform this. Of course my words are not infallible, nobody has to listen to them, and if you can convince me that this is necessary for the education of young people I will correct me.

You have got to be kidding right? You need to learn what the do means in Sumodo... God help us if Sumo is forced to change so that it conforms to the opinions of some foreign fans. Sumo is not a sport! It is a lifestyle that one chooses and thank god there are still some places where that kind of lifestyle exists.

[Fujisan 535]

Just a few generations ago, say corporal punishment at schools might've been nothing out of the ordinary, but you just can't expect some things to stay the same on the 21st century.

And thats why kids are running riot in the streets because of a lack of respect but thats a different argument altogether.

Edited July 16, 2006 by Fujisan

[ilovesumo 12]

To respect somebody has nothing to do with slaps. How could a kid from today respect somebody not respecting the kid and it's opinion. My father never slapped me, and he is the person I resect most in this world cause he tought me to listen.

[Shibouyama 1]

Would you beat your children? Or if you were a boss would you beat your employees?

YES!!!!!

The Brigadier (Shibouyama's alter ego) will readily slap anybody smaller than him given the chance.

Edited July 16, 2006 by Shibouyama

[Kintamayama 47,232]

It is becoming increasingly hard to believe, the stuff I read here. This is a sumo forum, not a housewive's afternoon tea party debate. this is Sumo. In Sumo, the hierarchy and everything surrounding it is THE center of everything. Take that away, and you get ballet.

I think I'm going to take the advice of a wise man for a while. This total, total misconception is too much for me. The new foreign fans who come and blindly root for their man without respecting sumo and all that it is. The total misunderstanding of it all.. Ilovesumo-you disappoint me.

I am going to do a Shiroikuma.

I need a rest. These last two days on the forum have made me come to the inevitable conclusion that I need to rest my case. Brigadier! At ease!

Case closed.

[Bishonohana 0]

If Roho had respected his senpai (elder/senior) and held his tongue (Eating...) , and not had a childish "outbreak" in the shitakubeya (dressing room/bath), AND being violent to the press, all it probably would have been is a severe scolding. Roho brought it upon himself. It just shows that he has no control of his emotions. He needs to take Anger Management classes. (Foot in mouth...)

It's so sad to think that Taiho and Otake Oyakata had to apologize for Roho's uncontrolled behavier... :'-( Roho needs to takes these 3 days and think about what it truly means to be in the Sumo Sekai (World). (Holiday feeling...)

[Fay 1,677]

It is becoming increasingly hard to believe, the stuff I read here. This is a sumo forum, not a housewive's afternoon tea party debate. this is Sumo. In Sumo, the hierarchy and everything surrounding it is THE center of everything. Take that away, and you get ballet.

I think I'm going to take the advice of a wise man for a while. This total, total misconception is too much for me. The new foreign fans who come and blindly root for their man without respecting sumo and all that it is. The total misunderstanding of it all.. Ilovesumo-you disappoint me.

I am going to do a Shiroikuma.

I need a rest. These last two days on the forum have made me come to the inevitable conclusion that I need to rest my case. Brigadier! At ease!

Case closed.

I didn't say any word against the hierarchy in sumo but I did say something against the abuse of this hierarchy. Think this should be allowed, if you like it or not.

A little bit more tolerance for sumo members who might know less about sumo and some who might know nothing would be better in this case. We all could learn from each other.

(Well the mean problem is I hate these Mr Knows-it-all, because they are so much like me (Foot in mouth...), and they always drive me to enter an objection.) (Holiday feeling...)

[Fujisan 535]

To respect somebody has nothing to do with slaps. How could a kid from today respect somebody not respecting the kid and it's opinion. My father never slapped me, and he is the person I resect most in this world cause he tought me to listen.

Take a look around ILS ,anybody who cant see the worlds going to hell because of the lack of proper discipline in the home and school must live on a desert island.

[SalParadise 0]

A discussion of whether or not corporal punishment is justified or not within the bounds of sumo is well outside the realm of the discussion at hand methinks. It's far more appropriate in a philisophical or cultural/sociological debate of some sort.

He got slapped. That may belong in the thread. Whether or not the Japanese use of physical punishment is appropriate or not is not.

[Notsukutsu 0]

Opposing psychologists would say that abused often become the abusers, so the vicious circle continues (Neener, neener...)

[Fujisan 535]

Opposing psychologists would say that abused often become the abusers, so the vicious circle continues (Clapping wildly...)

Theres a big difference between proper discipline and abuse Notsu (Neener, neener...)

[Muhomatsu 247]

It is becoming increasingly hard to believe, the stuff I read here. This is a sumo forum, not a housewive's afternoon tea party debate. this is Sumo. In Sumo, the hierarchy and everything surrounding it is THE center of everything. Take that away, and you get ballet.

I think I'm going to take the advice of a wise man for a while. This total, total misconception is too much for me. The new foreign fans who come and blindly root for their man without respecting sumo and all that it is. The total misunderstanding of it all.. Ilovesumo-you disappoint me.

Kintamayama:

I am mostly a lurker and I have enjoyed most of your posts and I happen to agree with your approach toward the treatment of Roho after this. On the other hand, I am quite dissappointed with your attitude toward sumo as expressed in these posts. You seem to long for the good old days of sumo before these rowdy foreigners and their fans entered the picture. Fortunately, the sumo of Oshiogawa-oyakata (this was his attitude as well from what I have read) is gone for good.

Sumo has evolved many times in the past. Look at the diffenence in sumo pre-Meiji and post-Meiji. Look at pre-war sumo and today's. The sport seriously modernized - and all of the changes were for the best. Thank god we do not have "draws" instead of wins/losses in each fight just so some particular rich sponsor is not ticked off. We have 15 day tournaments now, rules for promoting a Yokozuna beyond having a rich supporter, and 6 tournaments a year.

The inclusion of foreigners and their fans is part of the change and modernization of the sport and it is here to stay. The globalization of sumo is the only thing that will save it as a major sport and not relegate it to a sort of "sideshow freak status". Again, I admit that what Roho did was wrong. But your reaction to other non-Japanese fans was just as wrong. You are an expert, but you are not the Rijicho. Nor are you even Japanese - so you cannot (as it appears you are attempting to do) claim to speak on their behalf (i.e. in defense of their time honored customs). Speaking of which, if you studied sumo history, you would know that the "time honored customs" arguement is BS. When did the title of Yokozuna come into being again? If you do not like it, you do not have to watch anymore and associate yourself with them. You are not Japanese either (neither am I), so I find your tone quite arrogant and condesending. I am sure you claim to be a tolerant man, but your true colors were shown in a fit of anger. Much like Roho in that respect.