YDC convenes- after Nagoya 2025

[Reonito 1,783]

1. Fair.

2. Not sure. He's had to face more maegashira because sanyaku is depleted, and he ought to be just entering his prime, the only reason to call a peak would be in hindsight and based on just 3 basho.

3. Sure, but others have certainly sat out tournaments with elbow and toe injuries, and also, he's not allowed to do what say Chiyoshoma just did. We're constantly calling for other wrestlers to pull out and heal when they're clearly too injured to be competitive, and in his case, as you say, he must achieve a reasonable record.

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

Not sure. He's had to face more maegashira because sanyaku is depleted, and he ought to be just entering his prime, the only reason to call a peak would be in hindsight and based on just 3 basho.

He is "only" 26, but he has been in Makuuchi for 5 years already, and in Sanyaku for more than 3. In addition, he already has what most rikishi tend to develope later in their careers (advanced technical skills), and what he lacks cannot be improved with experience (an optimal sumo body). With Hoshoryu, what you see is what you get; at this point, I would rather expect more improvement from someone like Shishi than from him (relative to their current levels, obviously).

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

Sure, but others have certainly sat out tournaments with elbow and toe injuries, and also, he's not allowed to do what say Chiyoshoma just did. We're constantly calling for other wrestlers to pull out and heal when they're clearly too injured to be competitive, and in his case, as you say, he must achieve a reasonable record.

I am not blaming him for going kyujo; he was put in a situation where any significant drop in performance (for any reason) makes it logical for him to do so. But you will probably agree that it doesn't look good for him or the ozumo establishment that promoted him. 

When Kisenosato, Terunofuji or any other broken-body over-the-hill Yokozuna would miss any extended time, it looked like an inevitable price to pay for a long and successful career. But with Hoshoryu, especially if he was indeed promoted based on possible upside? 

Edited July 30 by Bunbukuchagama

[robnplunder 978]

21 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

About Hoshoryu, I will refrain from commenting. 

As soon as a Yokozuna senses he will have a bad basho (or fall to an early losing record), he finds the slightest excuse of an injury to go kyujo.  That's not "saving face."  That's chickening out.    I respect Harumafuji, who opted to finish most bashos even when it wasn't going well for him. Hak, Kak, Kise, Teruno - I wonder how many of their kyujo were for a real "serious" injury.  

[Wakawakawaka 217]

I think in summary of the preceding debate, we can all conclude that the most Yokozuna-like act Hoshoryu could have taken would be to deny the kyokai's offer of Yokozuna promotion in the first place... but, since he wasn't Yokozuna at the time, he would not have been allowed to act like one, so he accepted and became Yokozuna. Should be gambarize properly with his new found Yokozuna powers, he could master time travel, and as Yokozuna from the future, have the authority to reject the kyokai's offer. However, in this timeline he would have never been Yokozuna in the first place and thus unable to time travel back to not become Yokozuna.

Tl;dr - the laws of sumo and time travel in conjuction do not permit Hoshoryu to not be Yokozuna right now.

But it does raise the interesting prospect... are there any significant factors that may cause a rikishi to prefer to be an Ozeki instead of a Yokozuna?

Edited July 30 by Wakawakawaka

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

13 minutes ago, Wakawakawaka said:

the laws of sumo and time travel in conjuction do not permit Hoshoryu to not be Yokozuna right now.

This is very entertaining, but I doubt anyone would even consider blaming Hoshoryu himself for getting promoted. 

He was put in this awkward situation by others, and they are the ones we are critisizing here.

 

[Morning 99]

So the YDC is like the council that recommends people for Yokozuna promotion, aren't they? As such the current state is of course their own fault and they don't get to blame their "mistake" on others.

[Wakawakawaka 217]

12 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

He was put in this awkward situation by others, and they are the ones we are critisizing here.

 

But to what end? What should they do about it?

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

2 minutes ago, Wakawakawaka said:

But to what end? What should they do about it?

Now? Nothing, it's done.

Would be nice if they learned their lesson for the future, but I'm not very hopeful. 

[Kishinoyama 625]

7 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Yes, he is hurt (and so is basically any other veteran rikishi), but he does it because it saves his (and Kyokai's) face when a Yokozuna-worthy record becomes impossible.

According to the medical report, his toe was fractured and I do believe that is accurate. I know Kinta reported that he hurt it initially during degeiko at Isegahama beya on July 4. I have had a broken toe and I was hobbled for weeks. In my opinion, he shouldn't have been on the dohyo on the first day. Pushing 150 kg rikishi or trying to throw them while having a broken toe? it is not going to end well. 

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

Just now, Kishinoyama said:

According to the medical report, his toe was fractured and I do believe that is accurate. I know Kinta reported that he hurt it initially during degeiko at Isegahama beya on July 4. I have had a broken toe and I was hobbled for weeks. In my opinion, he shouldn't have been on the dohyo on the first day. Pushing 150 kg rikishi or trying to throw them while having a broken toe? it is not going to end well. 

I don't want to turn it into a medical discussion, but it was reported that he is expected to join the jungyo in the beginning of August. I, too, am intimately familiar with the way a broken toe feels; Hoshoryu's injury is likely to rather be a soft tissue issue similar to turf toe. A fracture would need way more time to heal more or less properly.

[Yarimotsu 642]

C'mon guys, we know he has an actual fracture and we know the initial injury is way before July. He has fought with this fracture before and prevented it from fully healing, as is the sumo way. This will now prevent us from knowing if the fracture has ever properly healed. 

[Kishinoyama 625]

39 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

… Hoshoryu's injury is likely to rather be a soft tissue issue similar to turf toe. A fracture would need way more time to heal more or less properly.

It was reported as a fracture. Not a soft tissue injury or turf toe.
 

When I broke my toe, it was taped to the other toe for more than two weeks. I had to wear a foot brace / shoe the entire time. 
 

By the way, professional athletes have sat out games because of turf toe. 

[Gospodin 268]

11 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Hoshoryu had a ginboshi rate of 2.9/basho or close to that and was already at his peak

I don´t think that either Hoshoryu, or Oonosato, have reached their ceiling yet, if they stay healthy. Due to different circumstances (Nokozunaphobia and the Ms tsukedashi system) both find themselves in the unusual situation of having their seasoning at a rather elevated level...

Put more simply: two young Yokozuna. I like it, even if sometimes frustrating.

 

Edited July 30 by Gospodin
corrections

[hypnoowl 25]

56 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

I don´t think that either Hoshoryu, or Oonosato, have reached their ceiling yet, if they stay healthy. Due to different circumstances (Nokozunaphobia and the Ms tsukedashi system) both find themselves in the unusual situation of having their seasoning at a rather elevated level...

Put more simply: two young Yokozuna. I like it, even if sometimes frustrating.

 

Can you really apply the same amount of seasoning to both just based on age alone? Compared to Onosato Hoshoryu is almost unpalatably salty already.

[ViscountessNivlac 36]

9 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Teruno - I wonder how many of their kyujo were for a real "serious" injury.

 

Terunofuji is the world's most injured man so, probably most of them.

[Kishinoyama 625]

11 minutes ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

 

Terunofuji is the world's most injured man so, probably most of them.

He had to take time off during the last tournament for fluid build up on his knees.

[mugatake 59]

12 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

what he lacks cannot be improved with experience (an optimal sumo body). With Hoshoryu, what you see is what you get; at this point, I would rather expect more improvement from someone like Shishi than from him (relative to their current levels, obviously).

What a ridiculous supposition. Terunofuji, Kisenosato, Kakuryuu, Harumafuji, Musashimaru, Asahifuji, were all ozeki or lower at age 26. All save Terunofuji needed years after that to improve their sumo enough to earn a promotion to yokozuna. The prime years of a rikishi's skills are not like the prime years of an MMA fighter or a boxer. Unless you mean to tell me that the 4 kilograms Harumafuji gained over the course of 4 years brought him to the optimal sumo body he had theretofore failed to build in a decade-long career, or the 1 kilogram Kisenosato gained made all the difference. 

And "advanced technical skills" are continuously improved until they decline with age or injury; they don't exist in a binary sense as something one does or does not have. Sotogake isn't an unlockable on a tech-tree. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,291]

The YDC said some unhappy things, which made many other people unhappy. Then even more people became unhappy due to those people.

I don’t know what this feeling is, but it feels comfortable or right. Terunofuji has a lot of friends and it always showed.

[Sumo Spiffy 666]

Wakamotoharu injured his toe a year ago. He had a couple strong tournaments after that, but even in this tournament just past, his foot was super taped up and he looked kind of flat-footed. At no point (that I saw) was Waka's injury described as a fracture, so presumably it was less severe than Hoshoryu's. But the wolves are circling Nephew anyway.

At this point, even though I was critical of Hoshoryu's promotion initially, I just feel bad for the guy. Given how his time as a yokozuna has started, he's going to fight in September as long as his foot is still attached, and I only hope his foot has healed enough that he doesn't make the issue chronic by competing. I've come around to believing he can hold up as a worthy yokozuna if his body cooperates, and I want to see if that's true.

Edited July 30 by Sumo Spiffy

[Octofuji 431]

In 3 of the last 5 bashos Hoshoryu has got 12+ wins. In all the time before that he only managed 12 wins once.

If you look at his overall trajectory and not just the last 3 bashos, this is surely either someone at the top, or maybe even yet to peak.

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

11 hours ago, Kishinoyama said:

When I broke my toe, it was taped to the other toe for more than two weeks. I had to wear a foot brace / shoe the entire time.

When I broke mine, I couldn't even put a shoe on my foot for 5 weeks or so. I really doubt it would be possible for a rikishi to perform with a broken toe when even walking normally causes pain.

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

5 hours ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

 

Terunofuji is the world's most injured man so, probably most of them.

Teru had 2 bad knees and a bad back. He could probably qualify for disabled parking if he was allowed to drive. 

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

8 hours ago, Gospodin said:

Put more simply: two young Yokozuna. I like it, even if sometimes frustrating.

You really fail to see the difference between them?

OK. 

[Bunbukuchagama 976]

41 minutes ago, Octofuji said:

In 3 of the last 5 bashos Hoshoryu has got 12+ wins. In all the time before that he only managed 12 wins once.

A "good" Yokozuna Hoshoryu basho: 12-3 JY

A "bad" Yokozuna Onosato basho: 11-4 JY

QED

[Akinomaki 41,815]

On 30/07/2025 at 09:08, Bunbukuchagama said:

I don't want to turn it into a medical discussion, but it was reported that he is expected to join the jungyo in the beginning of August. I, too, am intimately familiar with the way a broken toe feels; Hoshoryu's injury is likely to rather be a soft tissue issue similar to turf toe. A fracture would need way more time to heal more or less properly.

It's a quite severe injury:

The new kyujo certificate for Hoshoryu says "Left big toe, dislocation fracture". For the basho it was "Left first toe, MTP joint sprain and metatarsal bruise" 

The injury from training on July 4th was aggravated on day 3 in the bout with Aonishiki. o

Rikishi usually go on with severe injuries, you can't compare their behaviour with that what normally is possible.

And any case is different: I fractured a bone (5th metatarsal) in my left foot last year and only after about a month went to a hospital because I could hardly walk any more. Till then I managed to somehow ignore it - no dislocation and it healed properly, though I went on to walk outside without the foot brace/shoe, because it was uncomfortable. I only used the inner soft part in the house like a slipper.