Asashouryuu Refused Keiko!

[Kintamayama 47,232]

Asa went for degeiko today (the 10th) at Tokitsukaze. . It took him 25 minutes by car to reach Tokitsukaze's camp from his camp. Chiyotaikai, Tosanoumi,Tokitsuumi, Shimotori and others were doing some hearty keiko. The minute Asa entered, the mood changed. Nobody was in a mood to be tsuriotoshied and maybe get injured. They all politely declined Asa's moushi-ai invitations. "It's my back, you see". "My knee is hurting", "My elbow is killing me", were the excuses used. Usually, any rikishi with some common sense would be running out to the Yokozuna's heya for degeiko begging for him to lend them his chest. Instead, everyone is shying away from the Yokozuna.

A pissed Asa left Tokitsukaze in a huff, and proceeded to Miyagino, where he caught the tail end of morning keiko and managed to get in 10 bouts with Hakuhou and others.

But being in the streets looking for opponents since early morning, those ten bouts had no significance. Oddly, it's looking like he's going to be under-keikoed again, this time because he simply can't find opponents. "Whenever I appear, everyone runs away. But maybe I shouldn't overdo it with the tsuriotoshis..", he muttered. Is the person who does the dangerous throws to blame, or the person that lets it be done to him to blame?? Whatever the answer, his keiko so far is simply insufficient.

At Miyagino:

Edited November 11, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Refusing practice when requested by one senior in rank (Eating...) Not common practice in Japan! I wonder if the oyakata there were cool with that (or behind it) (Enjoying a beer...) VERY odd :-D

[Asashosakari 20,251]

Refusing practice when requested by one senior in rank (Eating...) Not common practice in Japan!  I wonder if the oyakata there were cool with that (or behind it) (Enjoying a beer...) VERY odd :-D

Considering that Shoryu apparently isn't well-liked by many oyakata either, I figure they might admonish their own rikishi publicly, while actually agreeing with their decision behind the scenes. Few oyakata would want their star rikishi injured this close before the basho. (That said, I imagine no such admonishment happened this time at all, or it would have made the papers.)

IMO, Asa has nobody to blame but himself. Don't play well with others, and they just might pick up their ball and go home, so to speak. While the intimidation factor surely has always been a part of high-level degeiko sessions, the whole thing is supposed to be a chance for mutual improvement of the rikishis' skills. However, it seems like Asashoryu has made intimidation the dominating reason for him to go to degeiko over the last year or so, so I can't say I'm surprised that only few rikishi see much of a value in doing keiko with him anymore.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Well, to improve rikishi need to fight someone stronger/better that themselves...turning down a chance to do that is turning down a chance to improve :-D

[Asashosakari 20,251]

Yes, but for most Makuuchi rikishi, "somebody better than yourself" also includes the four Ozeki, Wakanosato, Kotomitsuki etc. etc., all of whom don't intentionally use dangerous techniques during keiko. Sure there's something special about doing keiko with the Yokozuna, but it doesn't seem to be special "enough" to offset the increased possibility of injury at this point, so they just don't bother. Why risk shortening your career as a well-paid elevator rikishi for a couple of hours of "special" keiko. Asa is reaping what he has sown with his own attitude.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke 28]

IMO, Asa has nobody to blame but himself. Don't play well with others, and they just might pick up their ball and go home, so to speak. While the intimidation factor surely has always been a part of high-level degeiko sessions, the whole thing is supposed to be a chance for mutual improvement of the rikishis' skills.

While it is commendable that Asashoryu wants to get stronger and train harder, but he is not behaving as though he is a yokozuna.

A yokozuna is already at the plateau, ready to take on all comers. Once one reaches the level of yokozuna, he no longer needs to keep proving he is invincible as he is supposed to be already.

Fair or not, a yokozuna needs to prove his invincibility on the dohyo in hon-bashos and while during training he needs to help out and develop as many rikishis as possible to reach his level. A true worth of yokozuna is when he is beaten by those whom he taught so well during training that they could now even beat him. Then he can retire respected and make a dignified exit and hand over the torch.

Asashoryu is still too young. In time experience will teach him to be a true yokozuna, one cannot just overpower others but becomes a leader by example. A respect is not just something to be feared but earned. A grace requires maturity and overcoming struggles. At the moment he possesses neither.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Jonosuke

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Yes, but for most Makuuchi rikishi, "somebody better than yourself" also includes the four Ozeki, Wakanosato, Kotomitsuki etc. etc., all of whom don't intentionally use dangerous techniques during keiko. Sure there's something special about doing keiko with the Yokozuna, but it doesn't seem to be special "enough" to offset the increased possibility of injury at this point, so they just don't bother. Why risk shortening your career as a well-paid elevator rikishi for a couple of hours of "special" keiko. Asa is reaping what he has sown with his own attitude.

I was actually thinking of the current sanyaku crop...they need to take it to the next level (unless they are content be where they are, just punch the clock and draw a salary...wait for retirement - how exciting (Sign of disapproval) ).

As for risking injury by training with the yokozuna, I think if the guys would train harder, they wouldn't be so vulnerable to tsuri-otoshi, and other more dangerous techniques. If they take it easy, they make it easy (for 'Shoryu to drop 'em hard). Asa's good, but not good enough to tsuri-otoshi at will - he's telling the boys to give their all, or he'll remind them. I think 'Shoryu's just emulating his idol Chiyonofuji...

Edited November 11, 2004 by Otokonoyama

[Tenkashoryu 0]

I like that Asa's belt with his national flag. (Laughing...)

[Ryukaze 0]

I totally have to agree with otokonoyama here! "If you wanna be the man you gotta beat the man"! and so far there isnt a soul out there who has shown any signs of stepping up to the Yokozuna, not a soul! No one! No one can hold a candle to this guys fire and intensity, He's the Mike Tyson of sumo right now! and until someone steps up to the plate to challenge him nothing is gonna change! Get used to it!

Edited November 11, 2004 by Ryukaze

[Asashosakari 20,251]

I totally have to agree with otokonoyama here! "If you wanna be the man you gotta beat the man"! and so far there isnt a soul out there who has shown any signs of stepping up to the Yokozuna, not a soul! No one! No one can hold a candle to this guys fire and intensity, He's the Mike Tyson of sumo right now! and until someone steps up to the plate to challenge him nothing is gonna change! Get used to it!

Oh puh-leeze, save the hyperbole. I know you're new to the forum, so I'd just like to mention that we have had approximately 872 verbal clashes between the pro- and anti-Asashoryu factions over the last couple of years, and most of us are way beyond the "get used to it!" stage. Your enthusiasm is admirable, but there's no need to get all in-your-face about it towards those who do not happen to share your opinion. Thanks for your consideration.

[Araiwa 0]

Well, I do not really understand the problem of the pros. Is tsuriotoshi really that dangerous? One can get injured by so many techniques, imagine training with Kaio and a strong kotenage, or training with Tokitenku and a chongake. When the ozeki and makuuchi pros run away and a 19 year old rookie doesn't seem to be afraid then it looks like that the pros just have no balls. I would be curious to heare what Kokonoe says about this. I am sure he is very angry about Chiyotaikai and the others refusing keiko with the Yokozuna.

And it may be that a senior Ozeki like Chiyo says no to keiko to a yokozuna but Shimotori or Tokitsuumi??

[Onnagumo 4]

He's the Mike Tyson of sumo right now!

ehm..... is that supposed to be a compliment for Asa??? (Just do not get it...) (Laughing...)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Well, I do not really understand the problem of the pros. Is tsuriotoshi really that dangerous? One can get injured by so many techniques, imagine training with Kaio and a strong kotenage, or training with Tokitenku and a chongake. When the ozeki and makuuchi pros run away and a 19 year old rookie doesn't seem to be afraid then it looks like that the pros just have no balls. I would be curious to heare what Kokonoe says about this. I am sure he is very angry about Chiyotaikai and the others refusing keiko with the Yokozuna.

And it may be that a senior Ozeki like Chiyo says no to keiko to a yokozuna but Shimotori or Tokitsuumi??

I agree. It doesn't hold to just blame the tsuriotoshi. However, Asashoryu has such energy and aggressiveness in keiko that every other rikishi is Takamisakari in comparison, and that could possibly mean injuries. Also, there has been quite a few techniques executed by Asashoryu in keiko that whether they actually led to injuries or not, they at least could have done so with some bad luck. Of course, it was hardly a coincidence that everyone decided this at the same time. Someone thought it would be a good point to make towards Asashoryu, and I tend to think it was just a matter of time before this kind of protest emerged. The interesting thing is to see whether anything will come out of it...

Edited November 11, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[QttP 0]

As I see it, Asashoryu is the only rikishi who believes in going all out in training. Possibly that what makes him that good, but it's obvious why others don't like it. It's like when I used to do some sumo-imitating wrestling with my buddies, for fun, no one was ever going all out. Lots of times I could have gone for nodowa but didn't, because that's a violent move, and I never attempted any arm-breaking kotenages either.

Of course that was all a game and not even any kind of real training, but for most people the attitude is different between a game, a training session and a real contest. Not so for Asashoryu, so in training he seems really invincible, while in honbasho, he is still the best, but not by such a margin.

Best example was with Wakanosato (Shiroikuma brought it up before I think). Shoryu was so mad when Sato hatakikomied him in Nagoya, that he actually went to keiko with him for the sole reason of getting his revenge by tsuriotoshi. So he did. Did it help him? In Aki Sato hatakikomied him again.

[asa_love 0]

probably hakuho just accepted him because he was too scared to refuse, or perhaps they are both mongolians afterall

[Tomoe 0]

As far as I know training is not a game at all. Sure, nobody want's to get injured in keiko, but for a 100% performance in a real bout you must do 150% in training not 75%.

And for the future of the japanese rikishi it would be not bad, if they start to realise this.

[KIKENNA 0]

probably hakuho just accepted him because he was too scared to refuse, or perhaps they are both mongolians afterall

Hakuho is the only one who accepted because he knows what is good for him and his sumo and because he simply doesn't care! Nobody's invincible.

All rikishi who turned down asa's invitation to fight should actually be ashamed of themselves (Blowing up furiously...) and should be mockered in this forum and by anyone who has ever done any martial arts. lesson no 1. If you train with inferior you will become inferior.

Hope to see Asa (Being ninja...) kicking asses to all those guys in Kyushu.

as for Hakuho (Showing respect...)

[Hakuyobaku 33]

If you train with inferior you will become inferior.

so, Asa is THE superior, therefore, if he trains with the inferior he becomes inferior and he should not train at all? that is bad logic, man.. (Sign of disapproval)

[Coo-cook 0]

Now, it seems that Asashoryu is a guy who injures the others, intentionally.

I can't believe it. He is brought up in very conservative and traditional Mongolian wrestling family. In Mongolian wrestling, injuring somebody intentionally is seen as a sin. I beleive it's same in sumo.

Takamisakari's injury was not intentional. Yes, Asa's tsuriotoshi was intentional. But, he probably want inflict Takamisakari a shame and not an injury.

Also, I never heard Asa injured a rikishi other than that of Takamisakari's one case.

Probably, many rikishis refuse keiko with Asashoryu not because of fear of injury but because of fear of being tsuriotoshied which would mean humiliated, ashamed and reported in press. Asa should stop using tsuriotoshi (insulting others) during keikos. And, I wish the other rikishi's take the keiko seriously and "give your all out".

Many times we heard oyokatas say that if you give your all out ...you are less injury prone. Is that not so?

Shiroikuma,

I like your insider views very much. You are a big assett to forum.

But, sometimes, I think you might be little bit poised by Naruto beya's gossip,envy and trash talks about Asa. Forgive me.

[Jonosuke 28]

There may be a perception that only Asashoryu does real hard training among sekitoris. Obviously this is not so. And there is another perception that Asashoryu will always go full out in his training and this is also not true.

For one reason or another he has taken some time off even in the last two weeks. After all he is a human. There was a day he was not feeling too well (I believe he had a cold) so he took it easy. I am not sure of this in the last several weeks but there were probably a day or two when he only did basic sumo exercises and light training session.

In the last few days just prior to the hon-basho, most sekitoris tend to try to prepare themselves in their own way as they need a bit of rest as marathon runners do just prior to their race. A good rest is also a part of training and rest is often a crucial part of any training regimen.

There is also another reason Asashoryu needs to run around like a maniac trying to show everyone he is training hard. Prior to the last basho, he was so busy preparing for his wedding in Mongolia and in Japan. He hardly had any time to train and it was a fact that he did not had any hard training sessions. For this and his record in the basho, he was roundly criticized by his shisho, certain oyakatas, supporters and press. Asashoryu is a type of individuals who never forget so I believe he is trying to show to everyone he is the hardest working rikishi around and so far he is proving to be one. This basho at least no one can complain about his lack of training.

But I believe he needs to pace himself soon as he could get too exhausted by the end of basho if he keeps going like this during the basho.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Jonosuke

[KIKENNA 0]

so, Asa is THE superior, therefore, if he trains with the inferior he becomes inferior and he should not train at all? that is bad logic, man.. 

We can argue till the end of time about asa's dominance, but results show that he's the best rikishi at the moment. So HE CANNOT TRAIN WITH SUPERIORs, because it's impossible. But what he does- he's trying to find himself better opponents to train with, for example ozeki Chiyotaikai. And couple of days ago Kaio, who won the last basho! He came to him, because he was inferior to him in Aki. And he beat him 6-1 if memory serves me well. And he trained with Iwakiyama from whom he also lost! The way I see it Chiyotaikai and all those other guys should form a line to fight asa if they want to achieve anything.

So there is nothing wrong with my logics, man, and it's not my logics it's the universal logics of fighting sport. wheather we're talking about brasilian ju jutsu or f*****g kapoeira!

[Tomoe 0]

After all he is a human. There was a day he was not feeling too well (I believe he had a cold) so he took it easy. I am not sure of this in the last several weeks but there were probably a day or two when he only did basic sumo exercises and light training session.

Sure Asa is human (Blowing up furiously...) But to perform hard training when you are ill ist simply stupid. And there is nothing to win in doing stupid things like that.

In my opinion it is enough if you work simply always as hard as you can. This include intelligent decisions such as "I stop before I have a serious brakedown or put my health in jeopardy".

But unlike Asa the most of todays rikishi stop not at that point but miles before. And their performance during the basho's show the result auf this behaviour. (Showing respect...)

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

In one of my shortest posts ever: wimps.

[Burainoan 0]

If Asa wants to make a point about other rikishi's lack of effort, he should do it the old fashioned way - smack 'em around a bit. intentionally and repetitively using a dangerous technique in a training bout is unnecessary and unprofessional. hopefully that mass refusal made its point and Asa will learn that there are other effective and more productive ways to make his own point.

[Jonosuke 28]

But unlike Asa the most of todays rikishi stop not at that point but miles before. And their performance during the basho's show the result auf this behaviour. (Blowing up furiously...)

I suppose this was what happened to him the last basho then...

Anyway since Kinta-kun appeared to not reported yet, I will do the honor.

Asashoryu stayed at his Takasago camp on November 11 and trained against his heya's sekitoris including Toki and Asasekiryu as well as Hakuho who arrived at the heya for de-geiko. According to the report he had 17 training bouts with them.

Asashoryu looked pretty pleased with his efforts. "I am moving well. I've been having good training. In the end my arms were really pumped," Asashoryu said.

"Looking good, isn't he?" Takasago oyakata added