Burajirotono 99 Posted January 12, 2018 Salvê (Hi!) my dears! In any individual sport we all have a personal ranking with some sweethearts and the guys we hate/dislike. I see long discussions here, where people do impressive acrobatic argumentations, but in the end those discussions are just about users defending their favorite rikishis or attacking the dislike ones. How about we all be honest and open our “heart´s banzuke”? (again, sorry about my shitty English, I´m will (not) try to gambarize and improve) This is mine banzuke; it's a combination between skills admiration and well…Nonsense. Yokozuna east Ichinojo: Yes, the big boy is my favorite rikishi. I know, I know…He is hopeless. But the man is such a character! The tribal background and the "gentle giant" type just stole my hart. I think Big Jo is the coolest rikishi ever. It’s a hard guy to cheer but he always fouls me and gives me the false impression that someday he will be sticked by a bee and turn in to an unstoppable yorikiri machine! Yw Kaisei: Got to support my homie from São Paulo! Amassa esses puto, Rica! Oe Hakuho: If you love sumo you got to love the GOAT. Mothafucka nails every efficient kimarite. Maybe he is not the perfect hinkaku zuna but shit…I´m crazy about the Hak. I guess the extra pushes are some kind of bok heritage, he just have to crush the opponents to the ground, I mean... You cant stop a train in 5 secs, I have seeing he doing this in keiko against makushita boys, so I guess its just his way of mastering the ring…Long live to the boss, the dohyo´s devil, Mr. Monkhbatin Davaajargal. Ow Oooonoooshoooo: How awesome is this kid? Baby face, red mawashi and fuzzy sumo! Se Takakeisho: Pretty much the same. The little ball of fury! His bout against the Hak was my favorite of 2017. Sw Yoshikaze; until I saw an enterwiew with him I was thinking if he´s got some kind of retardation or something. Spirit, technique, puffy eyes and blood. That’s it. Yoshi always deliver fun! I Love the guy. Ke Kotoshogiku; Back stretch, salt toss and gaburigaburigaburi! Hope Giku just keep on doing his thing for long time. Who cares about rankings anyway? Kw Terunofuji: Monster power, Terunossaurus Mongoliensis. The man is zuna´s material and that knee is a shame for sumo lovers… Me1 Tochinoshin: He looks like a dock´s worker from the Baltic Sea. But loading fat japanese men instead cargo. Unfortunately the knee, the damn knee… Mw1 Sakokurai: The slick mongolchinese man. He is always a dangerous guy to fight. Not so much power but many many tricks. Me2 Daeishomaru: I don’t know why I cheer for him…I guess its feel like watching a giant baby being beat by rikishis, so I cheer to him just…you know…Don’t get himself broken there… Mw2 Ura: just the same, but with a baby girl (because of the mawashi). A giant baby girl on meth and speed, running around the dohyo. Awesome. Me3 Tamawashi: What I like in him it´s a thing we in Brasil call “catimba”… I really like the way he does a lot of mattas and stuff like that to mess with opponents heads before the bout, his oshi isn´t so bad too… Mw3 Oosunarashi: Bald, hairy and egypcian. What else we can ask from a rikishi? Me3 Chyotaryu: Bam! Bout is over. Love his “all in” style. Well actually I can do this all way to higher makushita, but I guess this is enough BS! I really have a Burajirotono banzuke in my head and I always cheer for one of the guys. Every bout. (except on Chiyoshouma-arawashi bouts. That bout just freaks me out). What about my dislikes? I hate nobody but I don’t like Kisenosato and Endo. Kise because he is Hak nemesis (I cant see any sumo fan liking them both), I will die thinking his second yusho was yaocho. He could be a great ozeki but they made him a shitty yokozuna. Endo gets much more kensho than he deserves for his mediocre sumo, when i sayed to my girlfriend that he is consider beautiful in japan she laughted her shit off; "no way, they all look the same, fuck". Endo just bothers me. That’s all folks! Ichinojooooo gambateeeeeeeeeee! 5 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 40,822 Posted January 12, 2018 My top rank - favorite rikishi who stay there and won't get demoted - for a long time was occupied by Hakuho alone, since he became ozeki - I still remember having been the only enthusiastic Hakuho fan on the SML among the blue wolf pack as he was promoted to yokozuna. Ichinojo took the top spot from him as he stormed into makuuchi, and it has stayed this way ever since. Nobody else has made it into that category so far, and Hakuho did everything he could to have him stay 2nd, regardless how bad Ichinojo performed. The 2nd group of rikishi, those I really like, has a bit more fluctuation - at present it contains Toyonoshima, Aminishiki, Yoshikaze, Onosho, Hokutofuji, Asanoyama, Ishiura, Enho, Shodai, Ikioi, Chiyonokuni, Satoyama in no particular order. The 3rd group of rikishi I simply like are as of this basho - also without further ranking: Kakuryu, Takayasu, Kisenosato (one of the newest in this group), Mitakeumi, Chiyotairyu, Okinoumi, Tochiozan, Myogiryu, Shohozan, Abi, Nishikigi, Ryuden, Yutakayama, Kyokutaisei, Homarefuji, Osunaarashi, Takanosho, Kotoeko, Ura, Terutsuyoshi, Kitaharima, Wakamotoharu, Shonannoumi, Wakatakakage, Amuru, Wakatakamoto, Keitenkai, Midorifuji, Nishikifuji, Itadaki, Chiyodaigo, Tokuda, Baraki, Urutora, new: Torakio, and ex-Asayamabana (forgot the new name) The next group are those I like a bit, maybe about 100, then those I don't care about, nearly all others and at last those I dislike: This is defined for me as: I want them to lose, to go makekoshi, to drop down as far as possible. For years this rank was reserved for Akiseyama - the only other before him there was the late ex-Kasugayama. But with recent developments, I have decided to put Takanoiwa, Takagenji and Takayoshitoshi in there for the moment. Takakeisho I have only demoted from simply like to don't care. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PawnSums 59 Posted January 12, 2018 47 minutes ago, Akinomaki said: and at last those I dislike: This is defined for me as: I want them to lose, to go makekoshi, to drop down as far as possible. For years this rank was reserved for Akiseyama What did akiseyama do to you? i like Chiyotairyu, Kotoshogiku, Gagamaru, And Goeido Alot, They are yokozuna in my hearts banzuke. orora ozeki. I don't like Kakuryu much, or kagayaki, and takagenji just sickens me 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 40,822 Posted January 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, PawnSums said: What did akiseyama do to you? He looks appalling, swindled himself into makuuchi and is a disgrace to the name Aki- 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PawnSums 59 Posted January 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Akinomaki said: He looks appalling, swindled himself into makuuchi and is a disgrace to the name Aki- So you were happy when he went 1-14 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 40,822 Posted January 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, PawnSums said: So you were happy when he went 1-14 He's making me happy ever since - he made me find the criteria for dislike 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katooshu 3,335 Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) The ones I cheer for right now are are Hokutofuji (#1), Kisenosato, Tochinoshin, Osunaarashi, Kagayaki, and Mitoryu. I tend to favour power and agression, and am not so much a fan of backpeddling and pulling, though Osu can be guilty of that sometimes. My top stable is Naruto, as Kotooshu was a favourite of mine, and I'm cheering on his 4 rikishi as they start out. I've also heard news of him trying more recently developed training methods, which I hope will prove superior to the status quo. The two rikishi I dislike are Kotoyuki and Takagenji. To me they seem to have an arrogant aura (Takagenji especially, as other rikishi have clearly noticed). Pretty much everyone else I'm indifferent about. Edited January 13, 2018 by Katooshu 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted January 12, 2018 I used to be a fan of Kotooshu, but now I'm past the fandom phase of my enjoyment of sumo. I would, however, like to see a trans-temporal Super-Sekitori banzuke made up of the 70-something Yokozuna達 (sorry, Mr. D, not a fan of the Latin plural), with the pecking order established by a massive fully-meshed round-robin tournament with the rikishi at their respective primes. So, in no particular (or fathomable, for that matter) order, Hakuho, Asashoryu, Takanohana, Akebono, Musashimaru, Chiyonofuji, Kitanoumi, Wajima, Futabayama, etc. Or, even better, add all the Ozeki to the mix and you also get a Meta-Makushita division as a bonus. Maybe the more numerically inclined members of the forum could pull out their miraculous ELO rating calculators and attempt a quick-and-dirty "ORDER BY"? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,549 Posted January 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, Sokkenaiyama said: Yokozuna達 (sorry, Mr. D, not a fan of the Latin plural) So how will I know if you mean singular or plural if I can't read Japanese? Yokozunas is also good. But a man has got to know.. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted January 12, 2018 I said I wasn't a fan. I didn't say I wanted to make myself universally understood. Also, you can read Japanese better than 99.9% of the non-Japanese on this forum. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,549 Posted January 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sokkenaiyama said: I said I wasn't a fan. I didn't say I wanted to make myself universally understood. Also, you can read Japanese better than 99.9% of the non-Japanese on this forum. The "I" was a universal "I". Many are also not a fan of my Shikona spellings. I am controversial. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted January 12, 2018 On second thought, though, I think the Yokozunae plural does make a lot of sense in Japanese, if you consider the following kanji, 横綱彙, and consider that the Latin pronunciation rhymes with ない and not with ね. It's scary sometimes what people can come up with at 1:30 AM in the morning, when the Sandman just won't enter. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sekitori 492 Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Burajirotono said: Endo gets much more kensho than he deserves for his mediocre sumo, when i sayed to my girlfriend that he is consider beautiful in japan she laughted her shit off; "no way, they all look the same, fuck". Endo just bothers me. Endo's "mediocre" sumo is primarily a result of the stupidity (let's charitably call it ignorance) of his advisors concerning his torn ACL. They suggested that he avoid knee surgery which medical experts state is an absolute necessity to continue activities where extreme stress in placed on the knee. They instead opted for natural healing which would not drop him nearly as far down the banzuke as post-op rehab would. They were correct in that he didn't drop down as far as he would have if his knee was rehabbed after surgery. What they got completely wrong was that their extremely poor decision has caused his knee to be permanently weakened. Endo at one time was touted to be the next Japanese yokozuna. He's now nothing more than a decent mid-maegashira rikishi. He could still possibly reach sanyaku for a basho or two, but he will never be the outstanding rikishi that people once predicted he would be. Endo doesn't bother me at all. I personally feel very sorry for him. On the other hand his advisors, who made a terrible decision which greatly harmed his once promising career, bother the hell out of me. Edited January 12, 2018 by sekitori Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,549 Posted January 13, 2018 Banzuke: Ikioi Y Tochinoshin Abi O Hakuhou Takarafuji S Yoshikaze Terunofuji K Oosunaarashi Aminishiki M1 Shoudai Ounoshou M2 Hokutofuji Takayasu M3 Ura Enhou M4 Shouji Asanoyama M5 Gagamaru Chiyonokuni M6 Chiyotairyuu The rest are all my sons. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joaoiyama 314 Posted January 13, 2018 29 minutes ago, Kintamayama said: Shouji The one who beat Torakio 3-0? He's so promising, would love to se a rivalry between them in makuuchi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taikoubana 144 Posted January 13, 2018 I'm loving @Kintamayama's picks. Not too far off from what I'd like to see. As for my banzuke ... Mitakeumi - Y - Hokutofuji Takayasu - Y Ichinojo - O - Onosho Kotoshogiku - O Shohozan - S - Ikioi Osunaaarashi - K - Ishiura Enho - M1 - Byambasuren * Yoshikaze - M2 - Wakaichiro Aminishiki - M3 - Hidenoumi Chiyonokuni - M4 - Gagamaru * Will edit when he has a shikona Not sure where to put Ura, but I would like him in sanyaku -- with a fully recovered knee, that is. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RabidJohn 1,858 Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) I'll refrain from banzuke-fying the list of my top 12 favourite current rikishi, though like the real thing it's just a snapshot in time and will no doubt change by the end of January. 1. Mitakeumi - He's the most successful rikishi to enter makuuchi since I started watching sumo again and he's risen to the top of my list over the last year. Ozeki before the end of this year, I hope, but even if he never makes it he'll end up alongside great upsetters like Terao, Akinoshima and Takatoriki in my all-time favourite list. 2a. Onosho - What can I say? I'm drawn to success! 10-5, 10-5, 10-5, 8-7 from makuuchi debut cannot be ignored. Another great upsetter, even if he's not destined for higher ranks. Time will tell. 2b. Hokutofuji - Joint second with Onosho and only given the 'b' in reflection of his candidacy for 'Worst Banzuke Luck of 2017'. How did he not end up in sanyaku with his joi KKs and three kinboshi? Reminds me of his shisho, moto-yokozuna Hokutoumi (Hakkaku rijicho), when I see him on the dohyo - and not merely because they both appear to have received natal blows from the same ugly stick! Future ozeki, I hope. 4. Takayasu - The big, cuddly teddy bear of ozumo - especially in that powder blue mawashi! He was never really on my radar until he transformed himself in latter half of 2016. He was never going to make ozeki - and then he did! So his position here is me being a success tart again. 5. Yoshikaze - Batters his opponents into submission with his face! Mental! Love it! 6. Hakuho - Superlative sumo cannot be ignored either, but I often find myself rooting for the other guy. However, I often rooted for the other guy when I first started watching sumo and Chiyonofuji was at the top of my list. Hakuho would be there too, but for his shenanigans... 7. Takakeisho - Feisty, reminds me of Takatoriki because of that. Kinboshi collector rather than ozeki, I think. 8. Tamawashi - Another perennial also-ran who transformed himself. I believe he's left it a little late to make ozeki, but that 11-4 to get back to sekiwake may be the start of a run, so who knows? 9. Sokokurai - Elevator rikishi who does far too much back-pedalling when he's capable of the beautiful yotsu-zumo that's earned him his place in my list. I wonder what might have been without that lost three years... 10. Chiyoshoma - Another rikishi here for his occasional flashes of brilliant belt sumo amid the dross of his henka and pulling. 11. Aminishiki - On the other hand Aminishiki is here because of his tricksiness. Back on my list due to his historic makuuchi return, I can't help rooting for the wily old bugger! 12. Ura - Slipping down my list sadly. I think we've seen the last of the Pink Wonder. Even if he does make it back to makuuchi, he's going to have to sacrifice a lot of his agility to protect his damaged knee. Just missing the cut are Ishiura, perennial underdog with a lovely shitatehineri and surprising oshi skills, and Chiyonokuni, if only because that rapid opening and snapping shut of his jaw he does before a bout and sometimes when he wins reminds me of a kid I was at school with who did exactly the same thing when he answered a question correctly! Strange what sticks in your mind... Edited January 13, 2018 by RabidJohn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atenzan 1,084 Posted January 13, 2018 13 hours ago, Kintamayama said: Many are also not a fan of my Shikona spellings. Those who try to bring you down are already beneath you. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tenshinhan 1,612 Posted January 13, 2018 My Hearts banzuke (san'yaku only): Terunofuji Y Ura Onosho O Shodai Hokutofuji S Tochinoshin Sokokurai K Takayasu Terunofuji and Ura are definitely Yokozuna material: admired for their performances in the past, seriously injured at present. Onosho and Shodai are very strong and also cute. If I were heavily drunk, maybe I would touch their chests (will never get the possibility of course). Tochinoshin still has so much yorikiri power in him despite his longterm knee injury. Sokokurai has many clever ideas to win matches. In general, I don't enjoy fat and clumsy rikishi with little technique (Gagamaru is the leader of this species). 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katooshu 3,335 Posted January 13, 2018 Gaga is also the active leader for most dirty looks and scowls given on the dohyo 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,109 Posted January 13, 2018 I'm widely believed to not have a "heart". I have had friends call me (using my real name instead, which isn't very different) 'The Gurowake Machine". My favorite rikishi are those that come out on top in my ranking system. So what do I think the banzuke should look like? Hakuho Y Kisenosato Kakuryu Y Takayasu O Goeido Mitakeumi S Kotoshogiku Tamawashi K Yoshikaze Hokutofuji M1 Terunofuji Takakeisho M2 Tochinoshin Endo M3 Tochiozan Ichinojo M4 Shodai Aoiyama M5 Okinoumi Takarafuji M6 Ikioi Ura M7 Onosho Kaisei M8 Chiyonokuni Shohozan M9 Chiyotairyu Aminishiki M10 Takanoiwa Arawashi M11 Myogiryu Toyonoshima M12 Asanoyama Enho M13 Kotoyuki Chiyoshoma M14 Takekaze Sokokurai M15 Abi Chiyomaru M16 Daiamami Daishomaru M17 Osunaarashi J1 Yutakayama Daieisho J2 Ryuden Kagayaki J3 Nishikigi Chiyootori J4 Ishiura Chiyonoumi J5 Mitoryu Tsurugisho J6 Azumaryu Sadanoumi J7 Kyokutaisei Jokoryu J8 Kyokushuho Hidenoumi J9 Tobizaru Kizaki J10 Gagamaru Meisei J11 Tokushoryu Shimanoumi J12 Kiribayama Daishoho J13 Tochihiryu Amakaze J14 Homarefuji Actually, there should be another two ranks about Yokozuna, the first being "Dai-Yokozuna", and the very top "GOAT", which is where Hakuho really belongs. There is a significant gap in quality between Y and O, and then another reasonable gap between O and S, then another smallish gap between S and K, before everyone starts blending in. So even though the sanyaku looks a whole lot like the regular banzuke in terms of how many are at each rank, the rank distinctions are fairly reflective of actual differences in skill as I see it. Obviously no such gap exists between Juryo and Makuuchi though. The gap between Hakuho and Kisenosato is roughly the same as between Kisenosato and Yoshikaze, and Yoshikaze and the bottom of Juryo. Feel free to hate on me for totally missing the point of this thread, I'm used to it for things like this. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted January 13, 2018 48 minutes ago, Gurowake said: I'm widely believed to not have a "heart". I have had friends call me (using my real name instead, which isn't very different) 'The Gurowake Machine". My favorite rikishi are those that come out on top in my ranking system. So what do I think the banzuke should look like? Hakuho Y Kisenosato Kakuryu Y Takayasu O Goeido Mitakeumi S Kotoshogiku Tamawashi K Yoshikaze Hokutofuji M1 Terunofuji Takakeisho M2 Tochinoshin Endo M3 Tochiozan Ichinojo M4 Shodai Aoiyama M5 Okinoumi Takarafuji M6 Ikioi Ura M7 Onosho Kaisei M8 Chiyonokuni Shohozan M9 Chiyotairyu Aminishiki M10 Takanoiwa Arawashi M11 Myogiryu Toyonoshima M12 Asanoyama Enho M13 Kotoyuki Chiyoshoma M14 Takekaze Sokokurai M15 Abi Chiyomaru M16 Daiamami Daishomaru M17 Osunaarashi J1 Yutakayama Daieisho J2 Ryuden Kagayaki J3 Nishikigi Chiyootori J4 Ishiura Chiyonoumi J5 Mitoryu Tsurugisho J6 Azumaryu Sadanoumi J7 Kyokutaisei Jokoryu J8 Kyokushuho Hidenoumi J9 Tobizaru Kizaki J10 Gagamaru Meisei J11 Tokushoryu Shimanoumi J12 Kiribayama Daishoho J13 Tochihiryu Amakaze J14 Homarefuji Actually, there should be another two ranks about Yokozuna, the first being "Dai-Yokozuna", and the very top "GOAT", which is where Hakuho really belongs. There is a significant gap in quality between Y and O, and then another reasonable gap between O and S, then another smallish gap between S and K, before everyone starts blending in. So even though the sanyaku looks a whole lot like the regular banzuke in terms of how many are at each rank, the rank distinctions are fairly reflective of actual differences in skill as I see it. Obviously no such gap exists between Juryo and Makuuchi though. The gap between Hakuho and Kisenosato is roughly the same as between Kisenosato and Yoshikaze, and Yoshikaze and the bottom of Juryo. Feel free to hate on me for totally missing the point of this thread, I'm used to it for things like this. How do you compute GOAT-ness? I've heard this discussion a million times, and there's never a conclusion. Aside from performance against his contemporaries, there isn't much data to go on. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bumpkin 438 Posted January 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Sokkenaiyama said: How do you compute GOAT-ness? I've heard this discussion a million times, and there's never a conclusion. Aside from performance against his contemporaries, there isn't much data to go on. Yeah, actually there is. Records held is the criteria. 40 Yushos, 1,064 career wins and almost every other record. Only Futabayama's 69 consecutive wins alludes him. By any definition, Hakuho is the Greatest Of All Time. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted January 13, 2018 Eludes, you mean. But even so, all of those are against his contemporaries only. I would like to see an all-time ranking as well, but unless time travel is invented, there's no reliable way to come up with one. Heck, one could even argue that Hakuho partly owes his yusho count and career wins to longevity, which could be attributed to advancements in medical science, which is definitely different now from what it was 20, 50, or 100 years ago. Can you say with any degree of certainty that Hakuho would have 40 yusho if his career started in, say, 1988 instead of 2001? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,109 Posted January 13, 2018 18 minutes ago, Sokkenaiyama said: Eludes, you mean. But even so, all of those are against his contemporaries only. I would like to see an all-time ranking as well, but unless time travel is invented, there's no reliable way to come up with one. Heck, one could even argue that Hakuho partly owes his yusho count and career wins to longevity, which could be attributed to advancements in medical science, which is definitely different now from what it was 20, 50, or 100 years ago. Can you say with any degree of certainty that Hakuho would have 40 yusho if his career started in, say, 1988 instead of 2001? When I said "GOAT" as a rank, I meant it in the same way that yokozuna is the top rank now, and that multiple people could hold it if they qualify by being so far above the field. It's not meant as a historical comparison, and I don't like to think that my ranking system is useful for historical comparisons. It's not meant as a permanent position either; if Hakuho doesn't retire before he gets significantly worse, I would downgrade his rank as appropriate. But in looking at the distance between Hakuko and just-barely-good-enough Yokozuna, a mere one rank just wouldn't be sufficient for me in making my "heart's banzuke" to indicate just where Hakuho should be on it, even at this point in time and not just in general. He's just that much better than anyone else right now, and has been ever since Asashoryu retired. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
