Basho Talk Haru 2015

[Asashosakari 20,213]

Wow. :-O

Andreas21 was right after all.

14 would get him to 35, not to mention a very probable Yusho or playoff loss. That would be pretty impressive indeed.

Right, the 8-7 would be pretty meaningless in that case. It's not that they're saying "you can start a three-basho ozeki run with 8 wins from M2", they're saying "if you post (yokozuna-quality) 13+14 wins in two basho, we'll consider that enough on its own". That's not particular news, they've always been open to such scenarios (they just don't happen terribly often). Edited March 22, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 4,147]

Thinking more about the Georgian match, I would think that if they were to stage the match, it would make more sense if Tochinoshin *lost*. Tochinoshin probably would have a better chance at making sanyaku for Nagoya if he was at M5 rather than M1; as an M5 he wouldn't face any of the top rankers except in cases of lots of kyujos like this basho, and the lower Maegashira joi that he will face as an M5 will be stocked with somewhat mediocre rikishi. A 10-5 from M5 just seems more likely than a 8-7 from M1. Additionally, giving Gagamaru another win would put him further out of Juryo demotion range; he may have had a good basho this time, but the fact is that he spent more than one basho in Juryo and still should probably be worried about it. There's also a minor factor of the bonus money; combined they would get a larger increase in their bonus accounts if Gagamaru won, as the accounts do not decrease due to MK; with Tochinoshin winning, he gets a .5 basis increase and Gagamaru gets a 3.5 increase, whereas if Gagamaru won, he'd get a 4.5 increase. Given that they're both about the same age, I don't think longevity of one over the other would contribute much.

Of course, they probably don't have accountants working for them that would figure these things out and it may have been more deference on Gagamaru's part than the calculated higher expected monetary value of having the match the other way around. But it's something to consider that Tochinoshin really doesn't get much out of his KK and that if it were all about total combined money (promotions and bonus money both considered) Gagamaru would be the clear choice. And really, I'd like to think they just went at it competitively and Tochinoshin was the clear favorite; there weren't very many other Day 15 maegashira matches (maybe Ichinojo's or Tochiozan's) where I expected a victory from one side as much as Tochinoshin's.

[808morgan 814]

Nice day today, great ending.

[luispereira 383]

what a final day!! awesome bouts! (Dancing of joy...) Epic!!

Edited March 22, 2015 by luispereira7cv

[808morgan 814]

I was pretty happy with the ending, Terunofuji and Goeido was pretty great too. I won't forget the Toyonoshima/Ama bout though, that was nuts. Interesting basho, injuries and people making a good showing like Gagamaru, what was that!?

Edited March 22, 2015 by 808morgan

[Tsubame 378]

Last sekiwake who could achieve 13 wins were: Kakuryu, then-Ama, Kotomitsuki and Hakuho (and far more). Allmost everyone from that list could win at least one yusho and became at least ozeki.

We can start putting heavy expectation on Terunofuji.

[dingo 1,473]

I wouldn't want to be in the way when Chiyomaru comes rolling down the dohyo like he did today.

[CT3* 331]

Epic bout of Yokozuna sumo from Hakuho and Harumafuji! But once Hakuho got the left outer, I knew it was game over.

Really hope Terunofuji can remain healthy and realize his potential. He's had issues with lower back pain in the past, and his tendency to lift guys and carry them over the bales is exciting to watch but could be detrimental in the long run.

Not going to get too deep into the yaocho fray, but we all know it sometimes happens. Several of the final day's bouts had predictable winners. And Hakuho lost his 3 final bouts in the basho that resulted in Kakuryu's sole yusho victory and subsequent promotion to Yokozuna. How often does Hakuho lose 3 consecutive bouts? At least Kakuryu is proving to be worthy of the rank, unlike Goeido who struggles to justify his recent Ozeki promotion.

I don't obsess over the yaocho spectre and it certainly doesn't hinder my enjoyment of this great sport!

[ALAKTORN 346]

With Hakuhō’s win, I feel like that loss to Terunofuji was a complete waste. I was getting hype for a play-off revenge, but it didn’t happen.

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

Last sekiwake who could achieve 13 wins were: Kakuryu, then-Ama, Kotomitsuki and Hakuho (and far more). Allmost everyone from that list could win at least one yusho and became at least ozeki.

We can start putting heavy expectation on Terunofuji.

The only other shin-sekiwake or shin-komusubi in the six-basho era with 13 wins was Kotooshu. Annenyama was darn close with 13-2 in Natsu 1957 (Nagoya had its first basho in 1958) - he even won the yusho as shin-komusubi (the only such yusho ever) to reach his career high rank of sekiwake one basho later...The 12-3 bunch isn't bigger either featuring Miyabiyama (shin-komusubi), Yutakayama and Taiho (both shin-sekiwake)

[Monnodo 60]

Everyone is talking about possible thrown matches and stuff and I am just sitting here, being happy Hakuho won. Seeing Hakuho win never gets old for me. Too bad he probably won't break Futabayamas record now, though.

[Itoyone 8]

This Basho has really been a wonderful experience. I can't remember the last time the final days of a Basho got me this excited. We should be basking in the high level of entertainment and the promise of things yet to come. But I have to admit this yaocho discussion has really got me thinking.

For the most part of the last 10 years I simply chose to ignore it. As ignorance sure is bliss, the pure joy of viewing the bouts without second-guessing any of it seems like the best form of viewing. But as the urge to discuss sumo rose inside me, I gave the whole concept of yaocho a lot of thought and in the end, without having the transparency to grasp its real dimension, it doesn't bother me at all or doesn't even matter to me.

In every sport and even in every aspect of human life, things get complicated and deals and concessions get made. How can we expect a sport to rise up and transcend the very core of human nature? After gleefully watching things play out, then checking back here to see so many yaocho theories, I can't help to think of the image of an atheist screaming in the cheerful face of someone coming out of a church, just to show their supposed intellectual superiority. Maybe we should embrace the pleasure of our pure emotions watching these rikishi battle it out instead of making everything an intellectual exercise. Enjoying a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, I still can't fathom why anyone would deliberatly diminish his overall sumo experience. Although I still love talking about Wembley Goal of 66' and I fully acknowledge how dubious things and decisions are what keeps the lore rolling, there should be no need to over-evaluate every split-second in High Definition.

Maybe I'm just a romantic but still being this uplifted and not being able to stop rambling, I just couldn't help myself but really savour every moment of this sumo weekend and enjoy it like the olympian clash of titans it should be viewed as (Laughing...)​

[Sumozumo 240]

Epic bout of Yokozuna sumo from Hakuho and Harumafuji! But once Hakuho got the left outer, I knew it was game over.

Really hope Terunofuji can remain healthy and realize his potential. He's had issues with lower back pain in the past, and his tendency to lift guys and carry them over the bales is exciting to watch but could be detrimental in the long run.

Not going to get too deep into the yaocho fray, but we all know it sometimes happens. Several of the final day's bouts had predictable winners. And Hakuho lost his 3 final bouts in the basho that resulted in Kakuryu's sole yusho victory and subsequent promotion to Yokozuna. How often does Hakuho lose 3 consecutive bouts? At least Kakuryu is proving to be worthy of the rank, unlike Goeido who struggles to justify his recent Ozeki promotion.

I don't obsess over the yaocho spectre and it certainly doesn't hinder my enjoyment of this great sport!

He had a broken hand ffs.

[Sumozumo 240]

Epic bout of Yokozuna sumo from Hakuho and Harumafuji! But once Hakuho got the left outer, I knew it was game over.

Really hope Terunofuji can remain healthy and realize his potential. He's had issues with lower back pain in the past, and his tendency to lift guys and carry them over the bales is exciting to watch but could be detrimental in the long run.

Not going to get too deep into the yaocho fray, but we all know it sometimes happens. Several of the final day's bouts had predictable winners. And Hakuho lost his 3 final bouts in the basho that resulted in Kakuryu's sole yusho victory and subsequent promotion to Yokozuna. How often does Hakuho lose 3 consecutive bouts? At least Kakuryu is proving to be worthy of the rank, unlike Goeido who struggles to justify his recent Ozeki promotion.

I don't obsess over the yaocho spectre and it certainly doesn't hinder my enjoyment of this great sport!

He had a broken hand ffs.

But, sumozumo, isn't that what they want you to think?!? Did you see the xrays?

[Sumozumo 240]

Epic bout of Yokozuna sumo from Hakuho and Harumafuji! But once Hakuho got the left outer, I knew it was game over.

Really hope Terunofuji can remain healthy and realize his potential. He's had issues with lower back pain in the past, and his tendency to lift guys and carry them over the bales is exciting to watch but could be detrimental in the long run.

Not going to get too deep into the yaocho fray, but we all know it sometimes happens. Several of the final day's bouts had predictable winners. And Hakuho lost his 3 final bouts in the basho that resulted in Kakuryu's sole yusho victory and subsequent promotion to Yokozuna. How often does Hakuho lose 3 consecutive bouts? At least Kakuryu is proving to be worthy of the rank, unlike Goeido who struggles to justify his recent Ozeki promotion.

I don't obsess over the yaocho spectre and it certainly doesn't hinder my enjoyment of this great sport!

He had a broken hand ffs.

But, sumozumo, isn't that what they want you to think?!? Did you see the xrays?

Shut up! I hve good rguement but its so hrd to type the 'a' key with my pinkie finger gone.

[Kishinoyama 623]

Too bad he probably won't break Futabayamas record now, though.

I have great respect for 69 consecutive wins but check out the banzuke from back in that era. They promoted and demoted rikishi a whole lot differently than they do now. They also wrestled fewer days and had fewer tournaments every year. And don't forget about the group of 'rebels' that left sumo in January 1932 and started their own sumo association. That changed things in sumo for several years afterward. :-)

[CT3* 331]

Sumozumo

Your response is cute. Not sure if you needed to quote my post multiple times, but cute.

[CT3* 331]

I gotta give some props to Gagamaru. I was in Tokyo for the January basho and watched his juryo bouts and was impressed with what I saw. Some guys get demoted and toil mightily in the lower ranks before making it back to makuuchi. But Gagamaru looked pretty focused last basho.

But I never expected him to go 11-4 in his first trip back. I don't expect to ever see him become a sanyaku regular, but he was always a pretty solid meat and potatoes rikishi.

I can't help but wonder if Masunoyama will take any inspiration from Gaga and make a similar return. But it may be too late.

[Shikona 171]

I believe there were also more restrictions on who you were able to fight in a tournament--more than the common heya restriction of today. On the other hand, precisely because of the lack of matches, Futubayama had to maintain his streak for something like six years. One fabulous year would be enough to beat it now. Without saying one is harder than the other, it is safe to say that the records really are not comparable. Hakuho's 63 is the modern record, and may endure for quite some time if he is unable to break it himself.

[Shikona 171]

I thought Hakuho's matches this basho also reflected the pique he was feeling with the media. Sort of like, I've been the good yokuzuna for so long, and I make one dumb comment and I get killed for it. So instead of his usual calm, in control matches, he went out there to throw any sort of garbage--like, I can do this stuff too. If you don't really appreciate me, look I can henka and poke and pull and slap like the other guys. And I can still win. So there.

[Shikona 171]

You want a clear cut non-distputable yaocho? Today's Georgian derby. Did anyone think for a moment that a 7-7 Tochinoshin would lose to a 11-3 Gagamaru? In which universe? Of course compatriot yaocho exists, that's not the point. There are bouts that simply can't be yaocho. And it seems that lately every single loss by Hakuhou is deemed yaocho..LOL.

I would still tend to dispute it because Gagamaru is the kind of big, slow guy that Tochinoshin can generally handle well. Certainly he holds a clear edge head-to-head.

I can see the compatriot angle since it's pretty much just the two of them. People say that about the mongolians all the time, though, and with something like every third sekitori a mongolian, you'd think they'd see each other more as rivals than helpmates.

On the third hand, I can certainly see Gaga back off on the gas with 11 wins and no shot at a yusho, no matter who he was paired with. And that doesn't bother me. Avoiding a dumb injury to come back strong next basho is fighting spirit in my book. Some might admire Chiyootori for putting everything he had into a last-ditch effort against Ichinojo when he was hopelessly lost on position. But I will miss him fighting next basho while he recovers. I admire Kyokutenho for knowing when to accept defeat at the edge of the ring, and his longevity is a tribute to it. Even Asashoryu would let up when he was on the way out. Good ring sense, it seems to me.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Shikona

[WAKATAKE 2,759]

Another great basho in the history books. Kudos to Terunofuji for forcing Hakuho to have to take it all the way to day 15 for the tournament to be decided. He seems to have found his groove and I am hoping that we will be seeing much more from him in the not so distant future. Consistency is the key and that is how you ascend the ladder and win the yusho.

Regarding Hakuho and his comment, plus his relationship with the media: in this day and age of the 24/7 internet culture, you just cannot say anything to the media and online because it will be spun so much out of context that damage control becomes a huge challenge. For both aspects of his comment about the monoii which resulted in the torinaoshi against Kisenosato, he was within his own right to criticize the shimpan-bu. Would I have done it? Probably not. He said what he felt and the blowback was such that he had to do something, because the media was not going to let this go, and from what I have been reading about on here and in the Japanese media, they still haven't let it go. For Hakuho and the JSA, it is a closed matter. I am pretty sure they chewed him out in a private meeting, and warned him not to do it again. Add onto that he apologized on national television that he had caused a stir for everybody, which to him closed the ordeal. Like any media though they decided to pursue, so now it's him against the media. As a public figure and an icon of the sport, this is something that he is going to have to deal with. You can say what you like, but there is also consequences to your actions, and in the age of the internet, it stays with you forever.

On to Terunofuji and his ozeki campaign. An 8-7 is not really a great way to start. In all honesty, I believe that he would have to win the yusho next basho to be considered. You also have to take into account who is all above him right now. There are three yokozuna (all Mongolian) and three ozeki (all Japanese). Looking at past circumstances and also the wrestler, the JSA can be pretty lenient or tough on the wrestler trying to achieve the rank. I have seen people point out that 33 wins in three basho is the de facto requirement for promotion to the rank, but beating ozeki and yokozuna adds to your resume when trying to achieve promotion. Among other things, I also believe him being Mongolian makes it harder for the JSA to automatically promote him. Kitanoumi says 14 wins because that will be the ultimate test as to whether he really is motivated to do it right as we go back to Tokyo. If he does not get 14, I still believe that a double digit basho will make him look good for Nagoya to close out his campaign. For the heck of it I went and checked out how the current yokozuna and ozeki did in the three basho before their ozeki promotions, plus how many yokozuna and ozeki were above them the basho before they were promoted.

Hakuho - 9-6(K), 13-2 (S-O), 13-2 (S-O/T/P), 35 wins, Haru 2006 Yokozuna: Asashoryu, Ozeki: Tochiazuma, Kotooshu, Chiyotaikai, Kaio

Harumafuji - 10-5 (S-T), 12-3 (S-O), 13-2 (S-T/P), 35 wins, Kyushu 2008 Yokozuna: Hakuho, Asashoryu, Ozeki: Kotomitsuki, Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Kotooshu

Kakuryu - 10-5 (S), 10-5 (S-O), 13-2 (S-O/T/P), 33 wins, Haru 2012 Yokozuna: Hakuho, Ozeki: Baruto, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku

Kisenosato - 10-5 (S), 12-3 (S-O), 10-5 (S-T), 32 wins, Kyushu 2011 Yokozuna: Hakuho, Ozeki: Baruto, Harumafuji, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku

Kotoshogiku - 10-5 (S), 11-4 (S-O), 12-3 (S-O/T), 33 wins, Aki 2011 Yokozuna: Hakuho, Ozeki: Harumafuji, Baruto, Kotooshu

Goeido - 12-3 (S-O), 8-7 (S-O), 12-3 (S-O), 32 wins, Nagoya 2014 Yokozuna: Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kakuryu, Ozeki: Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku

In the case of Hakuho, he first started as a Komusubi but chained consecutive 13-2 records, giving him 35 total wins while also being in a playoff his last basho at sekiwake. For the other five, they all were at the rank of sekiwake for their three basho. For the first five listed, there was only one yokozuna when they were all promoted. For Kotoshogiku, it was pretty easy for the JSA to promote him, as there were no Japanese ranked at ozeki or above. I believe that Kisenosato also benefited from this, since the very next basho it was only Kotoshogiku as a Japanese ozeki. Also, I think that the JSA was more lenient on Kisenosato because of his stablemaster passing away days before his last basho before being promoted. For Goeido, Japanese and also getting key wins over top ranked wrestlers, resulting in him getting the shukun-sho all three basho. I do hope that Terunofuji can make ozeki, but since anything can happen at any time in sports, he may or may not make to ozeki after Natsu 2015. Or it could go to Nagoya, or even beyond that. I wish him the best of luck.

[Kasutera 258]

So, after this basho, Endo, Aminishiki, and Chiyootori collectively have enough legs to compete in a three-legged race.

[Kintamayama 47,171]

Re Gagamaru, let's return to reality. He never had 7 wins under M7. Usually when under M11 he does well. Since last March something seems to have bothered him physically causing him to barely hang on to Makuuchi before finally dropping to Juryo for two basho. His problem seemed to have been solved last basho, and since then he is putting up his usual M 11 and under Gagamaru records. He was even 12-3 and got the jun-yusho back in January 2012 at M10. Forgot about that, huh? I did.

Next basho when he's joi, we can expect the usual 3-12. I would be astounded if he wins 7 for the first time.

OTOH, he needs another 11-4 to become Ozeki, no?

Edited March 23, 2015 by Kintamayama

[dingo 1,473]

Re Gagamaru, let's return to reality. He never had 7 wins under M7.

No, I refuse to believe that! We are witnessing the rise of the Shin-Gagamaru. His oshi will make Hakuho tremble and his mighty bellyflops will shake and shatter the dohyo under him!

OTOH, he needs another 11-4 to become Ozeki, no?

He'll have a 14-1 and lose the yusho in playoffs against Terunofuji next basho, and in Nagoya he'll get a yusho and be crowned yokozuna! You'll see!