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Haru Basho 2013 - Discussion Thread

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Kisenosato is out of control. Intimidation/psychological games are one thing, but he is being a child about it. It's as if he is actively trying to provoke a matta.

My Kisenosato rant now out of the way, yes Hakuho proved himself the king once again in his match against Baruto. Good to see Baruto battling hard again and doing well given his recent injuries, though.

Oh, yeah. Also celebrating Okinoumi staying strong in second place right now!

Edited by iron bug
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Sure, Okinoumi is a positive surprise, but Toyonoshima is the rikishi who is performing even a bit higher above my expectations, beating a yokozuna and two ozeki.On the other hand, can someone tell me what is up with Kaisei? The Brazilian is down to 2-8 against a rather easy schedule (no one higher than M3) - he had three small make-koshi in the last three basho, all in the joi-jin, so he should be 6-4 or 7-3 by now, but not 2-8 by any means.

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Kaisei's results simply match his lethargic sumo now - I have no idea how he won 20 bouts in those three meatgrinder basho to begin with.

Edit: Ah, I see how he did it - improbably large success against less-than-joi quality opponents. (14-2 against M3 and below, seriously?)

Edited by Asashosakari

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Well, that matches up perfectly with his opponents this basho... but now he is 16-10 against M3 and below.

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Well, that matches up perfectly with his opponents this basho... but now he is 16-10 against M3 and below.

That's certainly more in line with what I think of his abilities. ;-) 14-2-ish is what genuine joi-jin threats like Aminishiki and Toyonoshima are capable of (on their good days), I don't rate Kaisei in that league at all.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Miyabi's fall seems pretty precipitous. Betting against him in the fantasy sumo has helped me a lot over the past several months, but I do feel kind of sorry for the guy. I didn't think he'd still do this bad so quickly after falling to juryo. He fought back so convincingly after being demoted to juryo over gambling on baseball that you'd think he had more in him. But in sports 2 years is a long time.

Miyabiyama has lost all his power. I've been tracking his performances, and in his final two makuuchi division appearances he had one win going forward. That means he's gone from a push-pull rikishi to just a pull one, and the pull only really works in conjunction with the push. Not surprisingly, he hasn't pushed anyone out this tournament either. I didn't have any problem with him keeping on in juryo if he could have hung for awhile (like Takamisakari did, prolonging his career by 9 basho in juryo) but it was obvious to me he couldn't. Ozeki pride, eh?

And yes, some rikishi lose their power seemingly overnight. Chiyotaikia is another example. In his prime, his tsuppari was fierce, but at the end it had no effect. Just like spring (tomorrow!) in like a lion, out like a lamb....

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I thought of Taikai as well. At least he wa still an Ozeki whe he lost all his power (almost as suddenly as when the evil wizard does at the end of such movies) so he could finagle things long enough to set that longevity record.

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The key to getting to Hakuho is to get to him early. The longer the bout goes on, the greater the chances of him waiting for the right moment to unleash whatever move seems appropriate. Baruto got flat-footed for a second and it was all over. Hak can be had, but the idea is to get him off balance and not let him get control. While he doesn't get rattled too often, he's not a bar-room brawler. Once things settle down, it's only a matter of time before people get dumped.

Although Aran lost today, I've been impressed with his sumo all basho. A much different approach from the past.

One guy I've been disappointed with lately is Kakuryu. None of the inventive, creative fire-power when he was on his way up. Seems lost at the moment. Yet this was one of the MOST consistent rikishi for the longest time.

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If anybody's interested, the Word of God regarding Miyabiyama (well, word of Fujishima-oyakata, ex-Musoyama) is that he's leaving the ex-ozeki free reign in deciding when to call it quits. So if anybody's been hoping for subtle pressure it's not going to come from inside the stable, at least.

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This actually brings a few questions into mind:

- If he drops below Juryo, would he have to move back into the heya and be assigned duties again? (I'm assuming he currently lives outside the stable due to sekitori status); would he lose his tsukebitos?

- How about other rikishi that spring up from Makushita into Juryo temporarily then go back due to makekoshi? Do they move out of the heya for 2 months then come back?

- In heyas that don't have sekitori, would the highest rikishi on the banzuke be treated a bit more preferential and would have none or less duties to perform?

Sorry for posting this here and thanks for the replies.

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This actually brings a few questions into mind:

- If he drops below Juryo, would he have to move back into the heya and be assigned duties again? (I'm assuming he currently lives outside the stable due to sekitori status); would he lose his tsukebitos?

- How about other rikishi that spring up from Makushita into Juryo temporarily then go back due to makekoshi? Do they move out of the heya for 2 months then come back?

- In heyas that don't have sekitori, would the highest rikishi on the banzuke be treated a bit more preferential and would have none or less duties to perform?

Sorry for posting this here and thanks for the replies.

Not too sure myself, but it does seem a lot of privileges are lost when demoted out of Juryo. Financially a strong hit and otherwise to prestige. For someone like Miyabiyama who has had a long career filled with collecting bonuses his pay might drop massively due to the lost Hoshokin and rank pay. At the top of his game as an Ozeki he was probably getting a regular 3 million yen or so a month, more during Basho's, and even after dropping to lower ranks he probably netted around 2 million regularly, plus added performance prizes valued in the millions, as-well as perhaps some kensho extras too. Not a bad regular salary to have. Even in Juryo his salary isn't too bad... (I don't know about sumo wages that well, so I might be really off - but I think these values are at-least that high, perhaps higher)

If he drops to Makushita he doesn't probably even break the 200 000 yen mark per Basho, or less than 100 000 yen a month technically. I doubt he has a lack of cash, but surely such a drop in wages would further demotivate him. If that's even possible. :P - Add the loss in prestige and living conditions and I can't imagine any reason to stay. No honour, no money, no nothing really. He isn't even good enough as a training dummy anymore.

If he resigns now he should get a nice retirement bonus for his years in sumo and that is likely to be a far larger sum that he will ever see again from actively partaking in tournaments. I don't see why he just doesn't call it quits and relax and live a more normal life now, free of the pressure.

"Whatever their future results, rikishis never lose earned points, except additions earned through promotion which are lost due to demotion. However, only rikishis in the two highest divisions receive these payments, which are canceled upon demotion to makushita. Besides prestige and living-conditions, this motivates sekitoris and is why sekitoris in the twilight of their career retire soon after demotion to makushita. Their loss of prestige and wage is too drastic."

*** Miyabiyama lost again today. Looks like Makushita demotion is inevitable.

Edited by ArchangelEST

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This actually brings a few questions into mind:

- If he drops below Juryo, would he have to move back into the heya and be assigned duties again? (I'm assuming he currently lives outside the stable due to sekitori status); would he lose his tsukebitos?

- How about other rikishi that spring up from Makushita into Juryo temporarily then go back due to makekoshi? Do they move out of the heya for 2 months then come back?

Living outside the heya is more commonly associated with getting married. The usual perk for becoming a sekitori is getting your own private room at the stable.

Definitely no tsukebito below juryo except in very special circumstances, as far as I kow. (Does the yumitori have some?) As for the chores, I think that depends on the heya in question - some oyakata are more generous with their veterans than others, from what I've read. That also goes for the private room, although I think demoted sekitori are more likely to lose that privilege than they are to receive duties again.

- In heyas that don't have sekitori, would the highest rikishi on the banzuke be treated a bit more preferential and would have none or less duties to perform?

I think it's a mix of veteran status, ranking and leadership ability that decides this. Some are essentially player-coaches and are unlikely to be involved in the more menial tasks any longer. If it's a relative newcomer like Osunaarashi, it's probably less likely that he's getting preferential treatment before juryo even as the highest-ranker.

Edited by Asashosakari
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- In heyas that don't have sekitori, would the highest rikishi on the banzuke be treated a bit more preferential and would have none or less duties to perform?

I think it's a mix of veteran status, ranking and leadership ability that decides this. Some are essentially player-coaches and are unlikely to be involved in the more menial tasks any longer. If it's a relative newcomer like Osunaarashi, it's probably less likely that he's getting preferential treatment before juryo even as the highest-ranker.

On the other hand, even non-sekitori fast paced banzuke climbers are a stable's hope for tomorrow's meal ticket, I would be surprised if they didn't get some preferential treatment, at least while their star is on the rise.

In the example above,I think Otake-oyakata would gladly lose half his rikishi rather than lose Osunaarashi, and I am pretty sure that's the case with other stables with rising stars and no sekitori as well.

Even in large stables with plenty of sekitori, like Kise, I would be surprised if someone like Hamaguchi didn't get a degree of preferential treatment over the multitude of other non-sekitori in the stable...

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there were 2 things that puzzeled me in the baruto - toyonoshima bout

1. what was toyonoshima thinking, when he was trying to lift baruto although in a favourable position for a simple yorikiri

2. was baruto holding off an ellbow-breaking kotenage just before toyonoshima went down?....for me it seems he realized the position and stopped his turn

http://www.youtube.com/embed/KUxnANdkREs?autoplay=1

Edited by Gernobono

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Hooray, Hakuho wins another bloody yusho!

Oh yes and guess what, I'm really happy about it (Punk rocker...) (Yusho winner...)

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...and Hakuho drew level with Kitanoumi for shared 4th place in number of Makuuchi yusho. Way to go, White Phoenix! Next stop, Asashoryu.

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Oh I have to share this nice painting from moto Kototsurugi to celebrate Hakuho's yusho :-)

8580608956_c3601ed0e9_o.jpg
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Wow, now that is impressive Fay, Hakuho is my first Yokozuna that i saw fight personally (If only on TV) and i feel if i get to an older age i'l always be remembering him as my favourite.

Edited by Bugman

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Can Osunaarashi make it to Juryo in May?

He will be about Makushita 8 in May. In order to get to Juryo, another 6-1 from there is probably not enough whereas a 7-0 would guarantee promotion.

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Congrats to Hakuho. A true champion, indeed. Hope Okinoumi wins his remaining bouts and finishes strong.

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