Kisenosato v Kakuryu

[scotsumo 0]

I'm looking forward to seeing replays of this one, but the immediate reaction is one of utter dismay and disgust.

(Shaking head...) >:-(

[Kuroyama 715]

What? My impression was that Kise had won it the first time. I thought Kak's shoulder had probably touched down first. That a mono-ii was called was the least surprising thing ever.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Kuroyama

[Igordemorais 75]

I also thought Kisenosato had it the first time.

[Morty 1,505]

Likewise, I thought Kise twisted at the last moment and Kak's arm hit the ground first.

[ryafuji 815]

Interesting. My initial reaction was that Kakuryu had it the first time, but watching the replays it does seem inconclusive. A rematch was a no-brainer really.

[Rōnin 0]

I'll throw my vote in as well. I too thought Kakuryu had Kisenosato during the first bout...

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

I would offer now that Kise had Kak already at the last meeting of the Board of Directors, but it would be too cliché, so I won't.

[Andreas21 188]

The first bout was close but it shouldn't have been. Kakuryu was in full control, had Moro-zashi. Kisenosato was trying the last desparate moves on the rope.

Then Kakuryu was making a large movement with his upper body to his left. I have no idea why. If it was caused by some action with Kises left arm then it was great. But he didn't have much stance to put pressure with this arm. Or Kakuryu did it voluntarily to have a different angle of pressure. Maybe he was desparate because he didn't find the position for the last final push. Anyway, it was the losing move, as he was falling faster than Kise

In Kises face I read astonishment. As if he didn't believe what just happened, he was completely puzzled. A sure loss has been converted into a mono-ii and he didn't do much for it.

The second bout seemed as if Kakuryu had no power anymore, maybe no mental power. He had 90% won the first but a silly move kept him from the victory. Psychologically, a difficult situation, indeed.

[Masumasumasu 902]

I'll throw my vote in as well. I too thought Kakuryu had Kisenosato during the first bout...

Watch the replay. Kakuryu CLEARLY touches out first.

[Yubinhaad 11,768]

The first bout was close but it shouldn't have been. Kakuryu was in full control, had Moro-zashi. Kisenosato was trying the last desparate moves on the rope.

Then Kakuryu was making a large movement with his upper body to his left. I have no idea why. If it was caused by some action with Kises left arm then it was great. But he didn't have much stance to put pressure with this arm. Or Kakuryu did it voluntarily to have a different angle of pressure. Maybe he was desparate because he didn't find the position for the last final push. Anyway, it was the losing move, as he was falling faster than Kise

Kakuryu was the aggressor which is why the gyoji gave the win to him; the mono-ii determined (correctly, in my opinion) that they touched down together. Kisenosato was indeed twisting away to the left and pushing Kakuryu with his left hand, as you can see in this picture. (Apologies to Asojima for pre-empting his wonderful picture posts)

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

I would offer now that Kise had Kak already at the last meeting of the Board of Directors, but it would be too cliché, so I won't.

[Evil Curse]

Wikipedia Description of Evil Curse

Strong stuff.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Randomitsuki

[Masumasumasu 902]

Strong stuff.

You are doing sumo a great disservice when you make baseless and careless accusations. If Kakuryu was throwing the match as you say, he did a lousy job. He almost won.

If you don't like Kisenosato, fine but keep the silly conspiracy stuff to yourself, please.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Randomitsuki
Deleted evil curse; pruned for readability

[Kintamayama 45,539]

[Kintamayama further expounds on the meaning of the evil curse]

Edited May 16, 2012 by Randomitsuki

[iron bug 8]

I, too, thought it was pretty clear that Kakuryu touched first.

[Andreas21 188]

@Yubinhaad

I was talking about a moment a second earlier when they're both still upright. From the angle the video showed I could not properly see what Kise is doing with his left hand then.

After Kak was leaning so much to his own left it is straightforward that Kise uses his left hand to support his own twist. When Kak got to Kises right only then Kises left hand had the space to apply pressure.

But my question is why Kak initially moved to the left. I still think Kak did it by purpose, rather than Kise forced him to do it.

Sorry if I'm not so clear.

[Masumasumasu 902]

[Pruned for readability; still busy with that evil curse and Kintamayama's contextualization as something very impolite]

You're right. It's not courteous. Neither are baseless claims that rikishi are throwing bouts.

Why is it that I am lambasted for daring to address the potential conflict between Osunaarashi's faith and his sumo while others on the forum seem free to accuse high-ranking rikishi of deplorable acts?

Edited May 16, 2012 by Randomitsuki

[Asashosakari 19,682]

Wow, apples and oranges at their most apply and orangy.

[Randomitsuki 2,843]

Moderator Notice

Calm down everybody, please. I went on an editing spree (again!) pruning several derogatory expressions (and even some helpful contextualizations that explain those expressions). Sorry for that!
But: stay away from ad hominem attacks, especially if they appear to be as drastic as the one in question.
If you disagree with YBF's comment, discuss with him as this is a discussion forum. Do not publicly wish bad things upon him (or anybody else, for that matter) as this is bad style. Thank you.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Randomitsuki

[Randomitsuki 2,843]

Oh, and in order to contribute to this discussion:

Most people agree that in a larger picture a yusho by a Japanese rikishi would be good for sumo. Moreover, most people agree that sooner or later a Japanese yusho is bound to happen. Over on Sumotalk many active contributors find themselves in an agreement that this is happening right now. And according to their viewpoint, it is not only happening, but "happening" in a way.

They scrutinize bouts to make their case. Some find this debatable. Good stuff for discussion. If they happen to be correct, they will pat on their collective backs and say that they knew it all along. If it really happens, at the very least they got their predictions correct. That is more than many others can claim.

Personally, I think that sumo bouts could be dissected to death, and (due to the nature of the sport) it is possible to find "evidence" for fishiness in 80% of them. I think that fishiness exists, but it is way too easy to "prove" it after a bout. But hey, if bout dissection is one's favorite pastime, so be it.

I only have the problem if fishing for fishiness solely appears with regard to "unexpected" outcomes. I find it irritating when other factors are blanked out. For instance, Mike on Sumotalk either ignored or wasn't aware of Kotoshogiku's injury on nakabi. Therefore it made me smile when he went for a lengthy explanation as to why Kotoshogiku's bout against Kisenosato was "staged". A good example of "dissecting to death".

But once again, if Kisenosato gets the yusho, those who "knew it" as early as day 4, have a valid point.

[Asashosakari 19,682]

More generally, the problem with many notoriously skeptical people is that the last thing they'd ever think to be skeptical of is their own skepticism.

[Kintamayama 45,539]

[Pruned for readability; still busy with that evil curse and Kintamayama's contextualization as something very impolite]

You're right. It's not courteous. Neither are baseless claims that rikishi are throwing bouts.

Why is it that I am lambasted for daring to address the potential conflict between Osunaarashi's faith and his sumo while others on the forum seem free to accuse high-ranking rikishi of deplorable acts?

Nobody lambasted you, just disagreed strongly with you. Most forum members (on this forum, at least) have stopped trying to dispel conspiracy theories since we have grown quite tired of these discussions that have been going on for years. There is no point. YBF loves sumo just like you and I, but has his own agenda. You are welcome to argue with him inyanit without the strong language.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Gernobono 467]

i guess i might not have read all of this, but for me it is not kisenosato who is the trigger to the torinaoshi

after watching the slowmos on nhk, it was lear that kakuryu touched first

but in my oppinion the shimpan do not overrule the high-ranked goyji.......so it had to be a torinaoshi when it was clear to everyone that kise won that bout....

[Kintamayama 45,539]

They just overruled the highest of them all in the Hakuhou- Toyohibiki bout a few days ago so that's that.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Kuroyama 715]

They just overruled the highest of them all in the Hakuhou- Toyohibiki bout a few days ago so that's that.

Oh, he may dress like a Kimura, but we all know he's REALLY a Shikimori. ;-)

[Torabayama 51]

To think we were so close to witnessing our first gyoji seppuku... Sumo Reference sadly doesn't list these stats (Laughing...)