Yaocho by mobile scandal-

[Kintamayama 44,165]

Well, Riji reiterated last night that "a full accounting of the facts, punishment of the offenders, and steps to prevent a reoccurrence are a three piece set, and there can be no basho without that set."

So to paraphrase Ivan Drago, if it takes forever, it takes forever...

And to paraphrase Clint Eastwood, talk is cheap. You really think this will take forever? You really think sumo can afford this to taker forever? Do you really think that the people around sumo (even the Ministry of etc..) will let sumo die? Get real, mon. The "full accounting of the facts" will be abandoned eventually as it is impossible to implement. They'll make do with "we did our best, considering". Number two, sure. Number three? He/they can take as many steps to prevent a reoccurence as he/they liketh, but as we are dealing with humans, he/they can't guaranteeth it won't happen again.

[gmushial 0]

But such is kind of a false argument in that the simm chip can be copied in 1 minute or 2, the phone can be given back to the owner immediately, and the clone/copy can be processed at the investigator's convenience.

Why do you assume that the phone has a simm chip?

Every phone I've owned has had one, either removable (typically a microSD card); or one build in which can typically be read either via a USB port or other diagnostic data port. (I used the term simm to denote a memory card, not to be confused with a sim (service imformation module) card which only keeps subscriber info.) Now admittedly my universe has been limited to 6 phones... but even the cheapy $30 samsung was readable. The more serious law enforcement types here can clone the memory card in a minute or two and return the phone to ther user (nominally without them knowing it's been read).

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama
paring down unneeded quotes

[gmushial 0]

But such is kind of a false argument in that the simm chip can be copied in 1 minute or 2, the phone can be given back to the owner immediately, and the clone/copy can be processed at the investigator's convenience.

Why do you assume that the phone has a simm chip?

Good question. Many cell phone providers (for example Verizon in the US) don't even use a sim chip, and even in the case of those that do, the text messages aren't usually stored there. It's used for storing account data, or at least that's how it is in the US. Most cell phones have their own built-in data chip, which may or may not be so easy to copy.

(btw, "simm" is a different thing, "single-inline memory module"; cell phone account data is stored on "sim" ("subscriber identity module") cards. fwiw.)

And hence why I used the term simm and not sim - yes, one is used store data (in this case text msgs), and the other account info (which would be more or less of not interest in this case).

[alpineviolet 0]

And hence why I used the term simm and not sim - yes, one is used store data (in this case text msgs), and the other account info (which would be more or less of not interest in this case).

I see what you're saying. I was confused because I don't think simm cards have been much in use in a long time, and it's a specific type of chip. On a lot of phones you have to deliberately save your text messages to the SD card; otherwise it's just saved in the phone's internal memory.

[Kotoviki 16]

Or in his case it is quite possible that Orora stepped on it and broke it.. (Online too long...)

Again, a false argument in that the simm chip can be cloned in a minute or two, and can then be inserted into another phone of the same type and be processed there, or simply the clone of the simm can be processed independently.

just relax... it is a joke because Orora is gigantic... and many guy said they broke their phones already...

also not so sure about copying and such, I had a mobile phone failure and the maker themselves finally found a way to recreate my old emails and photos and such but needed 50,000 yen to do so. I had to pass and lost all info. just saying...

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama
pared unneeded quotes

[Kotoviki 16]

Good question. Many cell phone providers (for example Verizon in the US) don't even use a sim chip, and even in the case of those that do, the text messages aren't usually stored there. It's used for storing account data, or at least that's how it is in the US. Most cell phones have their own built-in data chip, which may or may not be so easy to copy.

(btw, "simm" is a different thing, "single-inline memory module"; cell phone account data is stored on "sim" ("subscriber identity module") cards. fwiw.)

Yes you are right, mine has only data of my account and not any messages, etc.. that chip I can take out and put in another phone at any time but just to identify me!

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama
pared unneeded quotes

[gmushial 0]

just relax... it is a joke because Orora is gigantic... and many guy said they broke their phones already...

also not so sure about copying and such, I had a mobile phone failure and the maker themselves finally found a way to recreate my old emails and photos and such but needed 50,000 yen to do so. I had to pass and lost all info. just saying...

The drug dealers here tried the same thing (to hide connections, contacts etc)... much to their unpleasant surprise everything, even "deleted" msgs, on "broken" phones, were readable and useable as evidence in court.. maybe in 15 or 20 years when they get out they'll be smarter. (Online too long...) ;-( [they also found that dumping the phones in a lake didn't save them - once dried out, the memory was perfectly readable.... about the only thing that seemed to save them was to dissolve them in acid or shred them.]

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama
pared unneeded quotes

[Kotoviki 16]

The drug dealers here tried the same thing (to hide connections, contacts etc)... much to their unpleasant surprise everything, even "deleted" msgs, on "broken" phones, were readable and useable as evidence in court.. maybe in 15 or 20 years when they get out they'll be smarter. (Online too long...) ;-( [they also found that dumping the phones in a lake didn't save them - once dried out, the memory was perfectly readable.... about the only thing that seemed to save them was to dissolve them in acid or shred them.]

what a shame nothing could be restored from my failed phone... even IF I paid 50,000 yen they couldn't guarantee anything would be restored completely.

On the other hand now I save everything to my 16gb mini sd card so the police can take that! LOL

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama
pared unneeded quotes

[Chankosan 0]

Now with the Yasukuni Shrine event cancelled, I assume there is zero chance that the YDC soken will be held at the end of April either? Man, the timing of these events really blows for my planned trip to Tokyo in April to see those two events. I could slide it to May, but what are the odds that the May basho will be held? Not very good I'd say... (Online too long...)

[Peterao 3]

Now with the Yasukuni Shrine event cancelled, I assume there is zero chance that the YDC soken will be held at the end of April either? Man, the timing of these events really blows for my planned trip to Tokyo in April to see those two events. I could slide it to May, but what are the odds that the May basho will be held? Not very good I'd say... (Online too long...)

Well, if they were going to hold Natsu Basho, I would think that they would also want to have a Soken, so I wouldn't go as to say that the odds are zero.

The odds I guess at below as to when the next honbasho will be held are for entertainment purposes only:

Natsu 2011: 20%

Nagoya 2011: 50%

Aki 2011 or later: 20%

Sometime after the fall of the Kyokai: 10%

[Peterao 3]

Name that basho!

Shukan Bunshun is teasing the following for an article:

"A Gachinko Basho happened just once! The surprising result! A Maegashira 5 Yusho, and from 7-7 a Yokozuna..."

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Kotonishiki's first hiramaku yusho in autumn 1991. 13-2. Asahifuji went 8-7 in the previous Nagoya basho, but no yokozuna actually finished the aki basho in 1991, with Hokutoumi absent and Asahifuji withdrawing part way through.

[Randomitsuki 2,754]

Maybe they are alluding to Hatsu 1972?

[Asashosakari 18,647]

Now with the Yasukuni Shrine event cancelled, I assume there is zero chance that the YDC soken will be held at the end of April either? Man, the timing of these events really blows for my planned trip to Tokyo in April to see those two events. I could slide it to May, but what are the odds that the May basho will be held? Not very good I'd say... (Online too long...)

Well, if they were going to hold Natsu Basho, I would think that they would also want to have a Soken, so I wouldn't go as to say that the odds are zero.

FWIW, Hakuho will reportedly suggest holding an all-hands practice event in the upcoming sekitori meeting, sort of a soken but organized by the rikishi directly, which may be made available to the public if that's deemed a good idea. (Beyond that it's more supposed to be an internal morale-builder for the rikishi, I think.) No prospective dates given, but my impression was that such a thing would definitely be considered as a replacement for the soken, should Natsu basho be cancelled. Might happen much earlier, though, or even multiple times - or not at all, in case the rijikai doesn't approve of the idea.

BTW, isn't all the talk about having to cancel Natsu, Nagoya or even Aki a pretty transparent push to have the gachinko rikishi out there reach the point that they're thinking, "Screw it, I'm not going to remain quiet any longer and let the cheaters ruin things that much"? Natsu basho might well be in danger simply because even the most conservative estimates for the investigation stand at two months, but I don't think there's any way Nagoya and later get cancelled - not least because the Kyokai's financial reserves IIRC are only sufficient to cover for two missed basho.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Maybe they are alluding to Hatsu 1972?

A lot closer to the time some authors have suggested the yakuza infiltrated sumo, and all the numbers match.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama

[Sashohitowa 6]

BTW, isn't all the talk about having to cancel Natsu, Nagoya or even Aki a pretty transparent push to have the gachinko rikishi out there reach the point that they're thinking, "Screw it, I'm not going to remain quiet any longer and let the cheaters ruin things that much"?

This is what I was thinking as well. Where are the ganchiko guys? Why don't for example, Kisenosato, step up and tell all the facts of all the cheating up there, or Shimotori to tell exaclty how he was refusing to participate in the yaocho?

I understand that so far they were afraid, but now when the investigation is going so deep, it shouldn't be that uneasy situation anymore.

[Kotoviki 16]

BTW, isn't all the talk about having to cancel Natsu, Nagoya or even Aki a pretty transparent push to have the gachinko rikishi out there reach the point that they're thinking, "Screw it, I'm not going to remain quiet any longer and let the cheaters ruin things that much"?

This is what I was thinking as well. Where are the ganchiko guys? Why don't for example, Kisenosato, step up and tell all the facts of all the cheating up there, or Shimotori to tell exaclty how he was refusing to participate in the yaocho?

I understand that so far they were afraid, but now when the investigation is going so deep, it shouldn't be that uneasy situation anymore.

I'm not sure, and this is just my opinion but... this is Japan and I personally do not see these guys coming forward.. scared or not.. usually in schools, businesses, etc.. this "tell all" just doesn't happen. Someone steps up, takes responsibility and fixes the problem. There is always someone who is judging the people doing the tattling..

And if anyone has given a match, for no money but for a friend even if it was their "gift" and not discussed prior to the bout or whatever they may feel that could be perceived as guilty..

Again I don't know but in basic Japan experience I don't see the rush for Kise, et al to run down and tell their stories... just a Japanese thing...

And I could be wrong, could be breaking news in 5 hours, who knows???

[Peterao 3]

And I could be wrong, could be breaking news in 5 hours, who knows???

A 4am confession? Well, I guess a lot of sake could bring that about...

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I'm not sure, and this is just my opinion but... this is Japan and I personally do not see these guys coming forward.. scared or not.. usually in schools, businesses, etc.. this "tell all" just doesn't happen. Someone steps up, takes responsibility and fixes the problem. There is always someone who is judging the people doing the tattling..

And if anyone has given a match, for no money but for a friend even if it was their "gift" and not discussed prior to the bout or whatever they may feel that could be perceived as guilty..

Again I don't know but in basic Japan experience I don't see the rush for Kise, et al to run down and tell their stories... just a Japanese thing...

And I could be wrong, could be breaking news in 5 hours, who knows???

Are they worried about katakiuchi,

[Kotoviki 16]

I'm not sure, and this is just my opinion but... this is Japan and I personally do not see these guys coming forward.. scared or not.. usually in schools, businesses, etc.. this "tell all" just doesn't happen. Someone steps up, takes responsibility and fixes the problem. There is always someone who is judging the people doing the tattling..

And if anyone has given a match, for no money but for a friend even if it was their "gift" and not discussed prior to the bout or whatever they may feel that could be perceived as guilty..

Again I don't know but in basic Japan experience I don't see the rush for Kise, et al to run down and tell their stories... just a Japanese thing...

And I could be wrong, could be breaking news in 5 hours, who knows???

Are they worried about katakiuchi,

[Sashohitowa 6]

I understand that there might be a Japanese way for that (My observations on the writings in this forum make me think that there is a Japanese way for everything). But it's not just that the ganchiko guys are suffering from the yaocho (promotionwise and moneywise). Now the situation has changed and if they know something, it's "if you are not with us, you are against us" thing. If they are being direcly asked by the investigation to cooperate, they'd have to direclty lie.

What is more face-losing -- to tell the truth about what you know, when you are explicitly asked (if not forced) to do so and to expose the bad guys (who are reason for losing face of the whole organization), or directly to lie in order to protect them.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

I understand that there might be a Japanese way for that (My observations on the writings in this forum make me think that there is a Japanese way for everything). But it's not just that the ganchiko guys are suffering from the yaocho (promotionwise and moneywise). Now the situation has changed and if they know something, it's "if you are not with us, you are against us" thing. If they are being direcly asked by the investigation to cooperate, they'd have to direclty lie.

What is more face-losing -- to tell the truth about what you know, when you are explicitly asked (if not forced) to do so and to expose the bad guys (who are reason for losing face of the whole organization), or directly to lie in order to protect them.

My problem with your question is that I don't see how the gachinko rikishi can help... once they are known as gachinko they won't get yaocho offers and how can they possibly know about (much less prove) yaocho going on around them? Kasuganishiki and Enatsukasa might have had a badly deleted text converation on their mobile phone but I don't think they were telling much outside their yaocho "circle". In fact, even within the involved rikishi talk probably is rare which is why there is a need for someone like Enatsukasa to keep records.

The yaocho comitee best bet is pressuring Enatsukasa to tell the whole story, and not from a gachinko rikishi.

[gmushial 0]

The drug dealers here tried the same thing (to hide connections, contacts etc)... much to their unpleasant surprise everything, even "deleted" msgs, on "broken" phones, were readable and useable as evidence in court.. maybe in 15 or 20 years when they get out they'll be smarter. ;-) ;-( [they also found that dumping the phones in a lake didn't save them - once dried out, the memory was perfectly readable.... about the only thing that seemed to save them was to dissolve them in acid or shred them.]

what a shame nothing could be restored from my failed phone... even IF I paid 50,000 yen they couldn't guarantee anything would be restored completely.

On the other hand now I save everything to my 16gb mini sd card so the police can take that! LOL

I suspect the problem you ran into w/re (not) being able to restore was the word: guarantee, ie, if they're going to charge you that much, and weren't able to restore 100.0%, then you'd sue them or whatever. I suspect that if they're chaged you 10,000 and said that they'd restore what they could, then it would have been a done deal. But at least here, the cell phone have become one of the police's best source of evidence... and it seems even the apps which allow one to encrypt "sensitive" data, have counter parts which the police already have to make said data as available as unencrypted data. Bottom line: cell phones have made law enforcement's job much easier.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I think it is just all about saving face in Japan!!! And that never includes tattling.

Again, my experiences are with schools, companies, education... etc. Like I said, I'm just saying.. being Japan I just don't see it happening. Ok maybe not breaking news in 5 hours though... as Peterao mentioned that is pretty earlier. Course the reporters could be sitting on it writing it as we sit here.. LOL

We just have to see...

Could you explain the motivations for saving face? Is it purely a shame culture, as Ruth Benedict posited, or are there other motivations? If there are, what are they? Being cut out of the benefits loop? Being a target for revenge? Other factors? What is it about "saving face" that drives the behavior?

Edited February 16, 2011 by Otokonoyama

[Asashosakari 18,647]

My problem with your question is that I don't see how the gachinko rikishi can help... once they are known as gachinko they won't get yaocho offers and how can they possibly know about (much less prove) yaocho going on around them? Kasuganishiki and Enatsukasa might have had a badly deleted text converation on their mobile phone but I don't think they were telling much outside their yaocho "circle".

Well, what Kasuganishiki was up to was supposedly an open secret in Kasugano-beya... I agree that gachinko rikishi probably won't know exact details, but the sumo world is close-knit enough that they might be able to tell the commission whom and what to look for/at. In fact, that seems to be exactly what the new hotline has been installed for. I don't think they expect a smoking gun to be delivered through it, just bits and pieces that can help them push the investigation further.